"Dead" cylinder with compression??

[JasonJ]

If a fuel injector "stuck open" you would not get a misfire since the amount of fuel that could leak past is not enough to cause a big issue besides messing up the fuel trims real bad.That would set off codes P0172(bank 1) or P0175(bank 2) depending on which bank has the leaking injector,at the same time the PCM would be cutting fuel to that whole bank thus reducing the amount of leaking fuel even father(to a point).

Now if they had the key in the "run" position without the engine running for a extended period of time or did not disable the fuel system while doing the compression test they could have "hydro locked" the engine.Once that happens you have a very small chance(like 5% or less) that no internal engine damage was done if it happened while at cranking rpm's and not at driving rpm's(1000 rpm's+).

Being as your current codes are for 2 different cylinders on different banks either they caused the codes and did not clear from testing of you have more than 1 issue to deal with.

I agree with Troy here... look, thing is, one fuel injector is not going to be physically able to dump that much fuel in that short amount of time during vehicle operation. It's a finer detail that I overlooked in my previous postings. Those things only have a flow rate so high...

But, like he said, at cranking speed while doing a compression test, fuel does get pumped into the cylinder... but not burned. So that could be a problem.. You're supposed to pull the fuel pump relay and release line pressure before a compression test- or anything similar that disables the fuel delivery system.

He's also correct -again I didn't mention this, but it's true- if while driving down the road one or more injectors stuck open, the vehicle will see this via various sensors and pull back on fuel trim, but even still, yes, Bank 1 or Bank 2 fuel trim too rich codes will set. Possibly O2 sensor out of range codes as well.

With only two fault codes present, that we know if, and for cylinders 1 and 2... what I'd do is clear all fault codes and start the vehicle... I'd run it (possibly drive it around the block) until the MIL came back on and then immediately check DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes).

With a PROPER vehicle scan tool, not some couple hundred dollar code puller that only shows vary basic data, reading actual fuel trims, injector pulse cycle data, sensor voltage outputs, etc., a GOOD technician worth his salt could figure this out with a few hours diagnostic time.

Also, I use the word "technician" on purpose. I learned this when I worked service dept at a local dealership. These guys were in advanced automotive and computer diagnostic training programs for 100 hours a year at least.. they need to know more than just how to turn a wrench, which differentiates a 21st century automotive technician from yesterday's "mechanic"...

My dad was a mechanic. he fixed mechanical things with he was a reciprocating engine mechanic with the Marines in Vietnam, later a Volkswagen mech back in the 70s. Computers and sensors and diagnostic scan tools didn't exist. The technology was different and so were the people who needed to work on these vehicles.

I say all of that to press the issue that when looking for a shop to trust with what for many of us is our second most valuable/expensive possession (other than our homes), consider exactly what the skill set and skill level is of the guy or gal who's working on your vehicle.

 

[Vgirl]

If a fuel injector "stuck open" you would not get a misfire since the amount of fuel that could leak past is not enough to cause a big issue besides messing up the fuel trims real bad.That would set off codes P0172(bank 1) or P0175(bank 2) depending on which bank has the leaking injector,at the same time the PCM would be cutting fuel to that whole bank thus reducing the amount of leaking fuel even father(to a point).

Now if they had the key in the "run" position without the engine running for a extended period of time or did not disable the fuel system while doing the compression test they could have "hydro locked" the engine.Once that happens you have a very small chance(like 5% or less) that no internal engine damage was done if it happened while at cranking rpm's and not at driving rpm's(1000 rpm's+).

Being as your current codes are for 2 different cylinders on different banks either they caused the codes and did not clear from testing of you have more than 1 issue to deal with.

I agree with Troy here... look, thing is, one fuel injector is not going to be physically able to dump that much fuel in that short amount of time during vehicle operation. It's a finer detail that I overlooked in my previous postings. Those things only have a flow rate so high...

But, like he said, at cranking speed while doing a compression test, fuel does get pumped into the cylinder... but not burned. So that could be a problem.. You're supposed to pull the fuel pump relay and release line pressure before a compression test- or anything similar that disables the fuel delivery system.

He's also correct -again I didn't mention this, but it's true- if while driving down the road one or more injectors stuck open, the vehicle will see this via various sensors and pull back on fuel trim, but even still, yes, Bank 1 or Bank 2 fuel trim too rich codes will set. Possibly O2 sensor out of range codes as well.

With only two fault codes present, that we know if, and for cylinders 1 and 2... what I'd do is clear all fault codes and start the vehicle... I'd run it (possibly drive it around the block) until the MIL came back on and then immediately check DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes).

With a PROPER vehicle scan tool, not some couple hundred dollar code puller that only shows vary basic data, reading actual fuel trims, injector pulse cycle data, sensor voltage outputs, etc., a GOOD technician worth his salt could figure this out with a few hours diagnostic time.

Also, I use the word "technician" on purpose. I learned this when I worked service dept at a local dealership. These guys were in advanced automotive and computer diagnostic training programs for 100 hours a year at least.. they need to know more than just how to turn a wrench, which differentiates a 21st century automotive technician from yesterday's "mechanic"...

My dad was a mechanic. he fixed mechanical things with he was a reciprocating engine mechanic with the Marines in Vietnam, later a Volkswagen mech back in the 70s. Computers and sensors and diagnostic scan tools didn't exist. The technology was different and so were the people who needed to work on these vehicles.

I say all of that to press the issue that when looking for a shop to trust with what for many of us is our second most valuable/expensive possession (other than our homes), consider exactly what the skill set and skill level is of the guy or gal who's working on your vehicle.

Thanks, guys. Very helpful. I appreciate this info so, so much.

Deep breath. So, my take-away from this intel is, the first mechanic who diagnosed it either:

1) Doesn't know what he's talking about, misdiagnosed the issue and didn't assess beyond false speculation. (I might just be hoping for this option.)

2) Lied to me about fuel injector being the primary cause of fuel dump onto top of cylinder (he kept saying it was cyl #1 but the current code is cyl #2), because it's not physically possible. And lied about it as the cause for the possible subsequent hydro-lock, what he kept referring to as "vapor lock", because he caused that issue plus internal engine damage by improperly conducting a simple compression test by not disabling the fuel delivery system and/or kept the key in the run position too long during a compression test. Essentially trying to cover up his negligence.

So. How do I prove #2 if that's the case?

Sadly, I can't say that either option would be outside his wheelhouse. I have a text message from him the day he was assessing it, asking if I had full insurance on it. I thought it was a very bad joke, like he was going to "accidentally" create a "solution" via a created problem.

So how to find a technician like you define, JasonJ, outside the dealership? I've already had to leave 3 shops because while the owner/mechs were happy to keep me there HOURS talking about their lives and other things unrelated to my Jeep, they never cared to listen to my needs as a more dedicated to my vehicle than the average customer. This last mechanic, the 4th, was the same way. I've said to them all that I want my Jeep to last forever. That I'd rather do preventive maintenance than deal with an issue that could have been prevented. Maybe it's a gender prejudice? Maybe it has nothing to do with gender but an authority complex? Endemic to the area of McMansions and people who want a new vehicle every 2 years? (That's not me.) Like. How do you know a shop has a good technician until you find out the hard, pricey, and possibly damaging way that they don't?

The new shop it's at since Monday. I don't know if he's a mechanic or technician. Or what kind of code puller he has. He was highly recommended by an owner of a salvage yard I've worked with in the past. He knew what I was talking about when I shared what I learned here. He listened and was open to it. But I haven't heard from him in 2 full days. Last contact was Mon morning when I asked by phone to put fresh eyes on it because it may have been misdiagnosed. I also don't want to be that girl who calls every 1/2 hr to check in. Obviously I understand there are other jobs in his schedule.

Ugh. This is why I am seriously considering getting some jack stands, a legit scanner, and starting a tool collection myself. I'll be on this forum all the time! Probably asking more questions. You've all been warned haha.

Again, thank you so much!! At this point, feel free to either talk me down or rally me forward. If there was damaging negligence, it'll need to be addressed for sure.

 

[Vgirl]

Update

New mechanic said:

"Definitely sounds like a loud knocking noise coming from bottom end of the engine which means you would need an engine replacement."

There was no loud knocking sound at time of breakdown. Just a lot of shaking.

Last mech said, "it's running better (with replaced PCV valve, breather hoses, plugs, injector, and coils) than it was but now I'm hearing a knocking sound I don't like." Combine that with his theory about primary injector failure causing hydro lock and I'm extra suspicious about the real cause of the loud knocking at this point.

What do I do now? To me, "sounds like" is not enough of a diagnosis to suggest the most expensive repair. Maybe I'm wrong? Any advice? Thank you all.

 

[mtlmech]

i am new to the jeep seen but i am a retired auto mechanic of 35+ years and i think you do need a 2nd opinion or to find a more knowledgeable mechanic as this sounds pretty basic. The term "dead cylinder" is used loosely to describe a variety of problems but can usually be identified with proper testing. A compression test is a quick test (which yours sounds ok) to see if further testing is needed, i prefer a "cylinder leakdown test" to identify an internal engine problem to identify internal engine problems as it's much more accurate but time consuming.
1) What kind of problem are you having? a misfire or rough idle? If so you are probably (from the sounds of the compression test) having a fuel or ignition problem as opposed to an internal problem with the engine.

hope this info helps mtlmech

 

[JasonJ]

i am new to the jeep seen but i am a retired auto mechanic of 35+ years and i think you do need a 2nd opinion or to find a more knowledgeable mechanic as this sounds pretty basic. The term "dead cylinder" is used loosely to describe a variety of problems but can usually be identified with proper testing. A compression test is a quick test (which yours sounds ok) to see if further testing is needed, i prefer a "cylinder leakdown test" to identify an internal engine problem to identify internal engine problems as it's much more accurate but time consuming.
1) What kind of problem are you having? a misfire or rough idle? If so you are probably (from the sounds of the compression test) having a fuel or ignition problem as opposed to an internal problem with the engine.

hope this info helps mtlmech

I think this last post of hers was the 2nd or even 3rd opinion already...

What we used to do at the VW service dept when we suspected something in the lower end, which happened often enough on the diesel engines, was remove the oil pan and look up. Often, but not always, you can see damage to any crankshaft or rod bearings, the connecting rods themselves etc.

Not as simple on a KJ because the engine cradle is in the way... just putting it out there though.

Really though, any mechanic/technician good enough should be able to diagnose and determine rod knock, bent or broken connecting rod. That's super basic stuff, relatively speaking.

 

[JasonJ]

Oh, and if it does need a new engine, which may be the simplest way to approach this, up to you if you want to spend the cash on a re-manufactured one; but I'd tend to go find one in the parts yard with decent mileage and at least a 30 day warranty. Still won't be super cheap, but won't cost as much as an entire KJ.

Which is a third option too... find someone selling a compatible year KJ, perhaps with rear-end damage, or that has rolled over. Buy it for peanuts, use engine.

 

[J33Pfan]

IMO: dont tell new Mechanic about Hydro lock. Just pull off valve covers to inspect valve train etc.
You might need a valve job, if so get the heads completely rebuilt as long as they are not cracked/damaged. These engines are known for valve problems.

If you really think a connecting rod is bent, you can very carefully measure piston movement (TDC) old school style through the spark plug hole with a flashlight & stiff but soft hose or whatever.
If all pistons reach TDC Conn rods are not bent.

In my experience the codes are not always that helpful. It just means you didnt find the problem yet.

 

[Vgirl]

Thank you mtlmech, JasonJ, and J33Pfan for your replies.

Sorry I ghosted on this thread.
My internet went out July 26 thru Aug 5.
July 30 I was bit by a Lyme disease carrier tick.
Anyone who's had Lyme KNOWS what that is like.

Wanted to update on my KJ since.
I was waiting until all was good and we were back up and running.

But there's more and I need some help with current issue.
Scroll to that part below if you don't want to read the history.

Here's what's happened since last post:
Decided on a Jasper reman.
New shop said the fuel injectors on my KJ "looked like they were all swapped around and the plastic caps on the ends were missing" and had to order new injectors.
The previous shop did swap them around. And charged me $540 (pre tax) for injectors and ignition parts. The last mech is now on my ****** List.
Dealership sent the wrong pilot bearing for the Mopar clutch kit, delay but resolved.
Engine installed.
Alternator needed to be replaced. Fine.
OE engine failure was a rocker arm. Fell to bottom end. Destroyed the cylinder.

Picked up my KJ Aug 25.
It wouldn't start. Battery. Mech swapped out battery at no charge.
5 miles into drive CEL on.
Under 10 miles from shop started to vibrate and hum at idle, at a traffic light.
Texted mechanic about both. He said the vibration might be the PCM learning new idle.
Dash scan showed o2 sensor 1 bank 1.

Side note: went out to measure sag for JBA OME kit spring choice. Melted down at the advancement of rust from it sitting out in horrible rain and hot humid of northeast weather we've had. My KJ has always been commented as "so clean." Yes there was the typical rust from behind and beneath the paint. Just couldn't see it. I treated it last year and was planning on the bodywork anyway. Just unprepared to SEE exterior rust. It was a sad moment.

After I stopped crying about the rust.
Took KJ out to self car wash place later that night.
Let it idle to operating temp like I always do.
It idled weirdly. Humming, vibrating, and mild shaking. Kept thinking, PCM learning.
5 miles to wash bay. Idling in neutral. Disastrous sounds and vibrations. Clanging sounds. Sounds everywhere. Seeming to come from near T case.
I have video footage of it.
It is worse sounding with AC on.
Cabin shaking so much the seatbelts, shifter knob, my bag on the passenger seat all shook. Like sitting on a whacky massage chair.
Clanging stopped with clutch depressed. Seemed to be related to clutch.
But vibrations etc continued.
Drove home. Clutch slow to engage pulling out of car wash.
Got home. Sobbed some more.

Texted mech Sunday Aug 26.
Mech said to bring it in Mon.
I said uncomfortable driving it 15+ miles.
He said he'd send a tow Monday Aug 27.

Sunday:
I detailed the interior at home like always.
Found that the 4WD shifter lever was incorrect. Sitting too high.
The entire housing could be lifted up with no effort.
You guys know how tight that housing is.
I thought the console area looked odd, not right when I picked it up.
I know my Jeep.
But with Lyme disease, it affects your mind so I thought maybe it was that.
Nope. Def incorrectly seated. Looks like it was "pushed up" from beneath. Lifted up.
The E brake also off plumb of its spot. Sitting too near the drivers seat.
And the gear shifter also has felt too high to my muscle-memory hand (5-spd).
I have images of 4wd shifter before and after. I sent to mech. Asked him to check the T case etc.

He looked at it Tues last week.
Said drives fine. Didn't feel vibrations etc.
Clanging is a bad throwout bearing. Dealership sending a replacement and covering labor.
T case fine, 4wd engages, E brake engages.
Said yes it's off center but works.
Said they did not do anything with console from the interior.
(I kept saying it appears to be pushed/lifted up from below.)
Replaced o2 sensor at no charge.

Picked KJ up that night. Only drove 1 day since, for work (thankfully holiday weekend).

CURRENT ISSUE:
KJ is in today for throwout replacement.
I asked him to recheck the T case and shifters/E brake (see above under "Sunday" for details if you skipped to this part).
I told mech it needs to be correct. No room for error with Jeeps.
I understand he says they "work."
But they need to be correct or problematic in future.
Jeeps are just. Different.
I feel like the shifters and e brake being off plumb are what's causing the vibrations etc.
I suspect he's not hearing/feeling the idle vibrations etc because he is heavier than me and has always sat in it to hear.
I suggested he stand outside drivers side door during idle.
It has improved some since o2 sensor replacement.
But it's still not correct.

Any ideas on what I should do or can tell him to look at or do?
He is very open to listening and is trying to solve this.
He acknowledges I know my Jeep.
I like him so far. But I don't want to have to see him all the time.
And I don't want to have to put him on my ****** List.

Thank you all!!

Will edit to include photos of the 4wd shifter when I upload from phone.

4WD Lever BEFORE:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B63Lz-JkDHiSU2kzQlFRRDRxMXNNMnk2dVV2MEYxeTJIX2c0/view?usp=sharing

AFTER:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B63Lz-JkDHiSRGJwUUIzWXhzSFhpbFBSaVFDZWVXblpaaHlF/view?usp=sharing

Audio footage for sounds etc:
https://youtu.be/32LSP3YSroM
https://youtu.be/wptOQF4-O90

Footage of lifted and loose 4WD lever:
https://youtu.be/JqG6olJvbio

 

[JasonJ]

Not sure on the shifter/console issue...but also not sure what kind of idiot puts a new clutch assembly into a vehicle while installing a new engine and DOES NOT replace the throw-out bearing. Ugh.. it's freaking included in just about every single clutch kit you can buy!

As for the sounds/vibrations/rattles, hard to say from YT vids, but honestly, that sounds to me (with volume up, around-ear HiFi headphones on) like the automatic belt tensioner chattering. Would be something to look at- with engine running, see if it's bouncing around a bit.. if it is, the spring is weak and the tensioner should be replaced.

What also confuses me is the injector issue.. last mech had you buy and he installed all new injectors.. new shop says there is something wrong with them and has you buy all new ones AGAIN. Right? Before the second set of replacement injectors, it seems to me you could have/should have had the "bad" replacements swapped out under some sort of warranty, or if they were damaged upon install by the last mech, that should be on him to make right.

 

[Vgirl]

Thanks so much JasonJ!!:flowers2:

The shifter/console issue is perplexing. New mechanic inspected it all again. Took it apart and checked the linkage, etc. He "promised" me all will be fine. He did that all on his own time at no charge. I'd just feel better knowing why/how it happened. It's bugging me.

Yeah so with the throwout bearing. It was a bad part from the complete Mopar clutch kit he ordered.The dealership parts dept acknowledged that and replaced the bad throwout and covered his labor. So I can't say it was the mechanic's fault.

Picked it up today and it was driving great. Perfect. I was able to breathe finally lol.

After work tho, maybe 30-40 miles, the rattle sound started again ugh. Stops when I depress the clutch. I have footage of it if you wanted to hear.

It can't be two bad OEM throwout bearings back to back, right? So I'm liking your belt tensioner theory a lot. I'll pass that along to him. Thank you.

The injectors. Agreed. That's what I was going to do, take the injectors back to the previous shop and dispute the charges. I tanked hard with Lyme disease at that time so I couldn't do it then. So I asked the new shop to put the injectors aside so I could bring them in. He agreed. But his employee didn't know and threw them out. I'm kicking myself for not asking him to put them inside the cab. He kicks himself for not telling the employee. I'll still dispute the charges. Because that other shop KNOWS what they did. Just wanted evidence.

Meantime another side note. Rolled down the windows before leaving the shop today. And this happened. Ugh. IDEK what that is. Got the window up enough and that flexible rebar looking thing leveled down. Additional tries to lift window produced a clicking sound like a burnt window motor. I'll be doing a search here on that issue later. Maybe something I can fix myself..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GrwaJ8J3TDN9kyc_NQwqojIje4uB1RBi/view?usp=sharing

 

[Billwill]

I hope when the new clutch assembly was put in that they did not machine down the flywheel!

Flywheel has a "curved" surface to match the curve on the new clutch friction plate. If flywheel is slightly worn it can be cleaned up with some Emory paper but must not be machined!

 

[Vgirl]

Thank you, BillWill!!

Ughhh yes I know about not machining down the flywheel.
I don't know if the mechanic knows about it tho. I didn't even think to review that with him.
I will ask him tomorrow if it was machined down or not.
Thank you for this!

Edit to add:
I like this new mechanic a lot. He listens and takes my feedback seriously. He tries and is honest. Works on trucks primarily and came highly recommended. He was the only shop willing to do engine R&R at the Mopar labor guide rate. I am so very grateful for that.
But he's not a Jeep guy.
At this point I'm wondering if I should seek out a Jeep specific shop because Jeeps are so particular.
I feel bad putting him in these spots too.

 

[JasonJ]

I hope when the new clutch assembly was put in that they did not machine down the flywheel!

Flywheel has a "curved" surface to match the curve on the new clutch friction plate. If flywheel is slightly worn it can be cleaned up with some Emory paper but must not be machined!

Thank you, BillWill!!

Ughhh yes I know about not machining down the flywheel.
I don't know if the mechanic knows about it tho. I didn't even think to review that with him.
I will ask him tomorrow if it was machined down or not.
Thank you for this!

Edit to add:
I like this new mechanic a lot. He listens and takes my feedback seriously. He tries and is honest. Works on trucks primarily and came highly recommended. He was the only shop willing to do engine R&R at the Mopar labor guide rate. I am so very grateful for that.
But he's not a Jeep guy.
At this point I'm wondering if I should seek out a Jeep specific shop because Jeeps are so particular.
I feel bad putting him in these spots too.

That's my next thought on this vibration/chattering, since it goes away when you depress the clutch (disengage it), when the flywheel and clutch friction disc then no longer are in contact, the sound goes away.

It sounds like the disc is slipping and chattering against the flywheel. My first car needed a clutch to be drivable, and my cousin and uncle who worked for GM and did demolition derby cars helped- cuz at the time I knew nothing.

My cousin torqued my flywheel bolts down in a circle instead of cross-pattern, and my uncle sprayed dry graphite lube into and onto the flywheel/clutch disc area. Why, i have no idea, but it chattered and made all sorts of noises and vibrations when I was working the clutch. It eventually worked itself out to where it only did it when reversing... but still, it's the same concept as what I'm thinking is happening here to you- the clutch disc and flywheel are not matched in terms of their flatness and there is some mismatch there.

It won't hurt anything so long as you're not dropping the clutch at high revs... but it's not right.

So this employee that tossed the old parts (injectors), was he told that you did NOT want the old parts back? Not sure if it varies by State or is Federal, but at least here in MI, the vehicle owner ALWAYS gets ALL old parts back except those that are too heavy or may have a core charge on them, unless you state otherwise and direct the shop to dispose of them.

That then would be on the employee, not only a violation of consumer protection law, but then if those needed to go back to the other shop/vendor for return or refund, now that employee owes you. And I would not let that go.

 

[Vgirl]

That's my next thought on this vibration/chattering, since it goes away when you depress the clutch (disengage it), when the flywheel and clutch friction disc then no longer are in contact, the sound goes away.

It sounds like the disc is slipping and chattering against the flywheel. My first car needed a clutch to be drivable, and my cousin and uncle who worked for GM and did demolition derby cars helped- cuz at the time I knew nothing.

My cousin torqued my flywheel bolts down in a circle instead of cross-pattern, and my uncle sprayed dry graphite lube into and onto the flywheel/clutch disc area. Why, i have no idea, but it chattered and made all sorts of noises and vibrations when I was working the clutch. It eventually worked itself out to where it only did it when reversing... but still, it's the same concept as what I'm thinking is happening here to you- the clutch disc and flywheel are not matched in terms of their flatness and there is some mismatch there.

It won't hurt anything so long as you're not dropping the clutch at high revs... but it's not right.

So this employee that tossed the old parts (injectors), was he told that you did NOT want the old parts back? Not sure if it varies by State or is Federal, but at least here in MI, the vehicle owner ALWAYS gets ALL old parts back except those that are too heavy or may have a core charge on them, unless you state otherwise and direct the shop to dispose of them.

That then would be on the employee, not only a violation of consumer protection law, but then if those needed to go back to the other shop/vendor for return or refund, now that employee owes you. And I would not let that go.

Thanks for this JasonJ!! Super helpful.

The Universe must be having fun with me at this point..
I texted the mechanic to say the sound was back. He was as surprised/confused/disappointed as me. I mentioned your belt tensioner theory. He said it's possible, he didn't even think about that. Then I asked if he machined down the flywheel as BillWill suspected. His text response was "Yes I had a machine shop machine the flywheel"

That heartbeat/breath-stop of dread set in as I read it.

I replied with the general, famous, appropriate expletive of dread - mostly to start breathing again - and said "that's the problem, they're not supposed to be machined down, the curve is supposed to be there."
He quickly texted back to say his phone spell-corrected to read "yes I had" when it was supposed to read "I didn't have." (I do know he voice-texts, so this is plausible. My phone is stupid all the time.) He continued to say he "didn't touch the flywheel other than moving it over to the new engine."
He wants me to come in Monday to have a look at the belt tensioner.

Meantime tho, is it something I can check myself? I will pass along the bolt tightening cross pattern and graphite spray questions to him Mon. And ask if he did anything that could conflict with how Jeeps like to be worked with.
Because yes. To me it sounds clutch/flywheel, for the same reasons you point out. Not because I have near the experience as you. But because it rattles in N and stops when I depress the clutch lol. And the low hum vibration that happens. It "feels" to me like parts are trying but not meeting up. Ughhh.

I'm driving below my usual rally-car racer style at the moment breaking in the first 500 on the new engine. So no worries about dropping in at high rpms. The guys I spoke with at Jasper said to stay under 3k rpms for first 500 but vary the rpms also. So I'm good there, altho it's tempting to really DRIVE the engine!! But thanks for pointing it out, I didn't know that.

Right now praying it's the belt tensioner. Because that theory doesn't make me stop breathing. No offense, BillWill

Interesting about the old parts law in MI! Maybe varies by State? I nor anyone I know have ever gotten parts back. Hence why I requested those. MI might have that law because of the heavy industry presence there(?) I'll look it up tho to be sure. TBH, it has confused me over the years when certain parts might have rebuild or salvage yard potential. I always thought it was a waste for parts to end up in a landfill. But I guess the mechanics get a bonus in the case of rebuild or salvage yard destinations. Upshot: good for the Earth. But kinda sketchy as far as consumer rights etc goes.

So at this point with the injectors it comes down to the last shop taking the opportunity to do the right thing and refund. If not. I will escalate accordingly. I may expedite the process by bringing someone, with similar reproductive organs as he, to have my 6. Because clearly he does not respect the repro organs I have:icon_rolleyes:

 

[Billwill]

Don't want to be a party-pooper but maybe you will end up removing the gearbox and have to put a steel straight edge across the flywheel to see if it is straight and also check if the friction plate has not been damaged.

Most mechanics do not know these vehicles. If taking a KJ in for some problem best to first print out the relevant pages from the correct year/model KJ Service Manual for the mechanic to first read up on the theory and how-to on checking/adjusting/replacing any component!

Index of Manuals: Index of /manuals/Jeep/KJ

 

[Vgirl]

Don't want to be a party-pooper but maybe you will end up removing the gearbox and have to put a steel straight edge across the flywheel to see if it is straight and also check if the friction plate has not been damaged.

Most mechanics do not know these vehicles. If taking a KJ in for some problem best to first print out the relevant pages from the correct year/model KJ Service Manual for the mechanic to first read up on the theory and how-to on checking/adjusting/replacing any component!

Index of Manuals: Index of /manuals/Jeep/KJ

Thanks BillWill! No worries!! I appreciate all angles of perspective. I hope you're wrong, only because it would be terrible if you're right

Is checking the flywheel something I should do? Or ask the mechanic to do? I have to say at this point I believe - or want to believe - that he is being truthful about not machining it down. That would have been an additional cost, right? There is nothing additional on the invoice. Nor did he quote a machine shop price when we talked about doing the clutch. He only said, "the Mopar clutch kit from Jeep will be $***.xx" And from what I know of him thus far, I feel he would own up to it if he had made that mistake. If only because it would be an answer to the problem. Plus he is a humble person and honest as far as I know.

But I would feel better knowing for sure, myself, that the flywheel still has its curve.

You're right about mechanics and Jeeps. I wish I knew prior how Jeep-specific Jeeps prefer to be. I'd have found a mechanic who knows (and appreciates Jeeps) rather than look for a "good mechanic" all these years. Hindsight I know I could have avoided other problems in the past.

Thank you SO MUCH for that link!!

A thought I've had all along that keeps circling back today:
I replaced the OE clutch at 155K miles (all driven by me). Only because the pilot bearing blew - which was scary af btw. The rest of the clutch was perfect. I bought a LUK kit from Pep Boys and my friend's husband and his Jeep mechanic friend did the job. They dropped the trans. But I remember they removed the interior console and said they "had to." I can't recall why tho.

So. This mechanic didn't touch the console. But my console is all off center and the 4wd shifter lever, gear shifter, and E brake are all out of their usual places since the engine/new clutch kit were installed.

I'm wondering if this is all connected...if to do a clutch on a KJ the console comes out for some reason?

I could always ask my friend to ask her husband. But I kinda don't want to because when my engine failed 2 months ago and I was looking for a mechanic to do a reman R&R to save my KJ, he was insisting I "just get something else."
He even sent me links to used Patriots and Compasses with auto transmissions...so I'm not sure he's on the same page as me:blah:

I can look at the manual instructions you linked, too, to see if there's mention of that. But I thought I'd ask here in the event the info could help someone doing a search in the future.

Thank you again so much!!
I still hope you're wrong tho

 

[Vgirl]

So this employee that tossed the old parts (injectors), was he told that you did NOT want the old parts back? Not sure if it varies by State or is Federal, but at least here in MI, the vehicle owner ALWAYS gets ALL old parts back except those that are too heavy or may have a core charge on them, unless you state otherwise and direct the shop to dispose of them.

That then would be on the employee, not only a violation of consumer protection law, but then if those needed to go back to the other shop/vendor for return or refund, now that employee owes you. And I would not let that go.

Looked it up. I'll only include the two relevant items from the full list. The first one may apply to the last shop. The second one to the new shop.
According to NOLO:

It is unlawful under the Auto Repairs Deceptive Practices Regulations and the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act for an automotive repair dealer to do any of the following:

Make any written or oral statements that are misleading and deceptive which the automotive repair dealer knows to be untrue or misleading.

Fail to return parts to the consumer at the time the repair is completed provided that the consumer, before the work was commenced, requested the return of parts.

The full list is startling. I've never had a shop do all of what's listed.

 

[sota]

Oh you're in NJ! There's your first problem!!!
Where BTW. And I'd be curious what shop did the work and fouled it all up.
I do most/all of my own work, but there is one shop that I currently trust to do work on mine or my family's vehicles. It's in Branchburg though.

 

[Vgirl]

Oh you're in NJ! There's your first problem!!!
Where BTW. And I'd be curious what shop did the work and fouled it all up.
I do most/all of my own work, but there is one shop that I currently trust to do work on mine or my family's vehicles. It's in Branchburg though.

Hey sota! Hahah yeah. Any chance you want to help me remove a gear box and check a flywheel?

I'm pretty near Branchburg actually! I'd love the name of the shop you trust, in case my current mechanic continues to be stumped.

I won't publicly name the shop/mechanic who put himself on my ****** List until I get the invoice for broken injectors resolved. And at this point I can't say the current shop made a sloppy negligent error, so it'd be unfair to jump to that rn.
I'll PM you tho.

Thanks!!

 

[Vgirl]

Update today. CEL. P0420. Catalytic converter says Google.

Into shop tomorrow to check belt tensioner and discuss this code now too.
My KJ either hates me or wants more of my attention. Ugh.

Plan after engine R&R was JBA lift kit.
Now all this other stuff has cropped up

barongan, hope you get yours sorted out!