Front end noise... Anyone had to replace differential bearings?

[james06scl]

Hello all,
I've spent a lot of time searching this and other sources for the possible known or common sources of noise. This is front end noise that is constant and audible at any speed above 2o mph. It sounds like a bad bearing ( rasping, droning, etc) and is quite loud in the cabin. Present in 2wd, or 4wd, in neutral or in gear. I had to replace the rear cv joint on the front driveshaft, and the noise was present even with the entire shaft removed.

It is not the tires!
It is not the wheel bearings.
It is not the brakes.
It is not the front drive shaft
Diff oil is new and full.
2002 Liberty 4x4, 316,000 kms

I am wondering about the front axles, intermediate shaft, although they are tight with no play, and boots are in good condition.
While jacked up, everything moves freely by hand, no resistance, etc.
Can these make this type of noise?

I suspect a differential bearing, maybe the pinion, not really sure. I read many posts about issues but for the most part people fail to post there solutions or fixes to there problems.
If anyone has experienced a similar issue with respect to this noise I would really appreciate you taking your time to advise.... thanks.

 

[tommudd]

I'd check the intermediate shaft and CV on the right side first, they can seem tight but the splines will be pretty much gone.
That would be my step one
and then .........

 

[james06scl]

Thanks Tommudd,

From what I have read these seem to be a common failure point. I will inspect the intermediate shaft and axle and replace them if necessary.

Regarding the spline, it seems through searching that many of the intermmediate shafts have rusted to the cv joint, is there supposed to be a certain amount of slip or sliding in and out at this connection or is it a fixed connection, splined to transfer rotation only?

Has anyone experienced a loud continuous drone type sound that was resolved as a result of replacing the intermediate shaft and cv joint / axle?

 

[Cardhu]

The rear drive shaft can make a hell of a racket with dry u joints but usually only present under power and lessens at coast.

Slip yoke splines at rear of transfer case can be dry too.

Anyway, have my doubts but its qiuck to check. tom likely has it right but a tad more involved.

 

[james06scl]

Thanks Cardhu, like you said it doesn't hurt to check, I'll have a look at those as well.

 

[CactusJacked]

Mine was making the same kind of sound you are describing. The end of my intermediate shaft was egged out, and the CV hub was able to flop up and down as the axle turned. Take a good straight-on look at the axle and see if it looks like it's laying at an angle, mine was noticeable. Below is the new and old shaft, don't have to tell you which is which. Don't know about the possible rusted on issues, mine came off no problem.....almost by itself!

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[james06scl]

Well it's reassuring to hear that this had created a similar symptom / noise in your Jeep CactusJacked.
I appreciate you taking the time to post and for the pics...
Nice comparison having the new and old splined shafts together, quite a considerable amount of wear on the old one!
After the holidays when I get time, I'll get to work on it. I will be sure to post the results.
Thanks again for all the feedback, much appreciated.

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

Mine was making the same kind of sound you are describing. The end of my intermediate shaft was egged out, and the CV hub was able to flop up and down as the axle turned. Take a good straight-on look at the axle and see if it looks like it's laying at an angle, mine was noticeable. Below is the new and old shaft, don't have to tell you which is which. Don't know about the possible rusted on issues, mine came off no problem.....almost by itself!

You must be registered for see images attach

Yep, that's a worn intermediate shaft! Don't know if mine was that bad or not as the shaft was rusted to the CV so I never got a chance to check it. The sound was just like the droning described in this thread - went away when the new shaft and CV axle went in.

Bob

 

[streetglideok]

Mine was making the same kind of sound you are describing. The end of my intermediate shaft was egged out, and the CV hub was able to flop up and down as the axle turned. Take a good straight-on look at the axle and see if it looks like it's laying at an angle, mine was noticeable. Below is the new and old shaft, don't have to tell you which is which. Don't know about the possible rusted on issues, mine came off no problem.....almost by itself!

You must be registered for see images attach

Lets hope I don't find this on mine this weekend if I'm off. I have a leaking axle seal from the right side, and have a new seal to install. If it's worn like that, guess I'll be throwing that front diff I bought from ridenby in a lot sooner.

 

[james06scl]

Well, I took a chance given the mileage on this Jeep, and ordered a new passenger side cv shaft, and intermediate shaft. I finally had some time today to work on it, and after taking everything apart I got a sinking feeling that this was not the fix.
The old parts were actually in fine condition, splines were just as good as the new one, and the intermediate shaft and cv half shaft came apart easily. The bearing inside the end of the differential axle housing, that supports the outer end of the intermediate shaft appeared to be fine, as was the seal. I went ahead and installed the new parts, and..... No change.
Kind of disheartening to say the least.
On a positive note, I've gained some experience and learned a few things while working away at it.
At this point I'm thinking it may have to go on a lift and be run and inspected by a professional to isolate the source of the droning noise.
Thanks for the advice to date, and if you have any other suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

 

[streetglideok]

Looking back at the original post, you said its not a list of things, including front hub bearings. How do you know it's not?

 

[james06scl]

Well I'm thinking it's not likely the bearings as both sides have been replaced, the passenger side a couple months ago, drivers side two years ago. I haven't ruled the drivers side out, but there is no play in the wheel / tire and no difference in noise when turning. This jeep has never been in mud or water so unless there was a defect in one that I'm not detecting, they should be good. Is there any other way to test them other than replacing them?

 

[streetglideok]

Granted my methods are not easily replicated by someone at home, but I have a couple of ways to check them. Normal way after test driving, and hearing the noise I lift it up in the air and put it in 4wd. Have an assistant put it in gear and run the vehicle about 30mph. I use a mechanic's stethoscope and listen to each hub. If I hear noise, it's bad. A good one will be silent. A guy at home will not have a lift to pick up the whole car like I do. I also have on more than one occasion used chassis ears to listen for the source of the noise. They are remote microphones that allow the user to sit in a vehicle, with a driver driving the vehicle in a manner that duplicates the noise. You listen to each mic until you hear the noise, or it is the loudest and truest to the noise.

That said, and the bearings being done in the past:
You won't always have play in the bearings when they make noise. In fact I've had one hub with play and no noise(yet) and the other side had no play but growled. Time wise, I've seen the cheapo Chinese bearings make noise after a month of use. When I service wrote and wrenched at the same time, I would only offer a 90day warranty on the cheapo bearings and no guarantee on noise, and offered a 1 year warranty on the much higher quality and pricier Timken bearings. Also, if the installer did not properly torque the axle nut to spec, they can make noise prematurely as well.
The oreilly master pro, or AZ duralast(duracrap) bearings are $105-$150 over the counter, and about the cost of a repair facility. The Timken is going to cost $255. Repair shops will mark the cost up no less than 1.5x, but 2.5x is more the common practice especially if they have a long term goal of being open beyond a year. So if a shop did it for you and they provided the part, then the cheapo bearing may have been $300 plus labor or more. I am elaborating on this, because the price you pay at the shop does not always reflect the quality of part you are getting. This is American pricing, your prices are likely higher.

 

[james06scl]

Thanks for the info Streetglideok,

The older drivers side bearing was done at a Jeep / Chrysler dealer so I assumed that it would be an oem part. (over $500.00 bill just for the new bearing install)
I could put the Jeep on 4 axle stands and run it here at home, but I honestly don't really feel comfortable with getting underneath it while doing that. As you stated the bearing might be bad based on your experiences with them. I think I'll take it in at the very least to have it put on a proper hoist, and run as you described, and hopefully find out what the issue is. It might be a good idea to pay a professional to diagnose it rather than continue to throw parts at it. Then I can decide if it's a job I can handle. I'll post the findings / repair when I get that done.
Thanks...

 

[streetglideok]

Sounds like the best bet. The dealer would most likely use an OEM part, but lately in the name of being competitive, I've seen them cut some corners.

 

[TheBlueKJ]

And just to add another experience here my wheel bearing was so bad that I couldn't hear anything over the growling. And guess what? There was absolutely no play in it whatsoever. Streetglide definitely gave you some good suggestions to go by

 

[leth]

james06scl, I've been troubleshooting what sounds like the exact same issue as you. I suspect mine is either an axle bearing (due to description below) or the passenger wheel bearing (no play in it but I know that doesn't mean they can't be noisy. And the driver side is a brand new Timken and noise didn't change when I replaced it due to play.)

Does your noise appear above certain speeds? e.g. around 60kmph (35mph)?

Does it change pitch at all when turning? Try finding a stretch of winding highway or long on/off ramp to test this

This is from the Jeep service manual (last paragraph is key):

BEARING NOISE
The axle shaft, differential and pinion bearings can
all produce noise when worn or damaged. Bearing
noise can be either a whining, or a growling sound.
Pinion bearings have a constant-pitch noise. This
noise changes only with vehicle speed. Pinion bearing
noise will be higher pitched because it rotates at a
faster rate. Drive the vehicle and load the differen-
tial. If bearing noise occurs, the rear pinion bearing
is the source of the noise. If the bearing noise is
heard during a coast, the front pinion bearing is the
source.
Worn or damaged differential bearings usually pro-
duce a low pitch noise. Differential bearing noise is
similar to pinion bearing noise. The pitch of differen-
tial bearing noise is also constant and varies only
with vehicle speed.
Axle shaft bearings produce noise and vibration
when worn or damaged. The noise generally changes
when the bearings are loaded. Road test the vehicle.
Turn the vehicle sharply to the left and to the right.
This will load the bearings and change the noise
level. Where axle bearing damage is slight, the noise
is usually not noticeable at speeds above 30 mph.

 

[leth]

A follow up on this; it turned out to be the passenger side wheel bearing. I wasn't able to determine for sure if it was the axle bearing, and the wheel bearing is relatively easy to change (although not cheap), so I decided to replace it before I start tearing the front differential apart. Luckily enough it was the wheel bearing, despite no play and no noticeable noise when spinning the tire with the vehicle up in the air.

 

[Swisher]

Well, I took a chance given the mileage on this Jeep, and ordered a new passenger side cv shaft, and intermediate shaft. I finally had some time today to work on it, and after taking everything apart I got a sinking feeling that this was not the fix.
The old parts were actually in fine condition, splines were just as good as the new one, and the intermediate shaft and cv half shaft came apart easily. The bearing inside the end of the differential axle housing, that supports the outer end of the intermediate shaft appeared to be fine, as was the seal. I went ahead and installed the new parts, and..... No change.
Kind of disheartening to say the least.
On a positive note, I've gained some experience and learned a few things while working away at it.
At this point I'm thinking it may have to go on a lift and be run and inspected by a professional to isolate the source of the droning noise.
Thanks for the advice to date, and if you have any other suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

Thanks for sharing. I'm having the same issue with my KJ at the moment. I noted a lot of slop where the passenger side CV axle connects with the intermediate shaft; however, after doing some pricing, a new intermediate shaft will run me around $120 while I was able to locate a good used front differential with only 120k on it for $150 drained, inspected, and delivered. I went ahead and opted to swap the entire front differential just in case I had a pinion issue as well.

 

[Mikev8327]

Hello all,
I've spent a lot of time searching this and other sources for the possible known or common sources of noise. This is front end noise that is constant and audible at any speed above 2o mph. It sounds like a bad bearing ( rasping, droning, etc) and is quite loud in the cabin. Present in 2wd, or 4wd, in neutral or in gear. I had to replace the rear cv joint on the front driveshaft, and the noise was present even with the entire shaft removed.

It is not the tires!
It is not the wheel bearings.
It is not the brakes.
It is not the front drive shaft
Diff oil is new and full.
2002 Liberty 4x4, 316,000 kms

I am wondering about the front axles, intermediate shaft, although they are tight with no play, and boots are in good condition.
While jacked up, everything moves freely by hand, no resistance, etc.
Can these make this type of noise?

I suspect a differential bearing, maybe the pinion, not really sure. I read many posts about issues but for the most part people fail to post there solutions or fixes to there problems.
If anyone has experienced a similar issue with respect to this noise I would really appreciate you taking your time to advise.... thanks.

Well james06cal I haven't seen ur fix .I too have that same issue. Its so load u can't even hear the radio anymore .what did u find out.one thing I tried was to put it in 4 wheel drive on the fly ,then I could feel it clear up the conceal were my arm would rest. Thanks mike_cv8327.