Warn M8000 into ARB front bumper - 05 KJ

[Myke]

Few suggestions for you guys with winches.

• Snatch Block: Most people don't know but a winch rating is for only the first wrap around the drum. If you have an 8k lb rated winch with a 100' cable and you're pulling yourself out using an anchor 25' away you may have 4 wrapped layers on the drum still. Each wrap will eat ~15-20% of the rated pull strength. In this scenario you're left with 5k-5.2k lb rating.
  
  Now if you're in sunk in or on an incline you can expect for your load on the winch to increase. If you're stuck axle deep the load will double. If you're stuck on the frame the load will triple. Every 15 degrees of incline you need to add 25% of the vehicle weight to the load.
  
  So if you're axle deep in mud, on a 15° incline, and you're anchor point is 25' away leaving you with 4 layers of cable wrapped around the drum. We'll say your Jeep weighs 4k lbs loaded up (probably heavier in reality). The load on your winch will be 9k-10k lbs. That's nearly double the load limit of 5k-5.2k.
  
  With a snatch block you're effectively doubling the pulling power of your winch and will be using more of your cable so you have less layers on the drum. Same scenario using the snatch block you'll have 50' of cable in use so say this leaves you with 2 wraps around the drum. You're pulling capacity will be ~6.5k-7k lbs and then doubled with the snatch block giving you 13k-14k lbs of pulling capacity.
  
  You can also do a triple line pull a increase your pulling power by 3x. If you don't need to increase your pulling power but you're in an awkward spot or you need to pull a friend out but can't get a straight line to them you can redirect a single line pull around a "corner" using a snatch block.
  
  You've also now just "permanently" mounted your winch to the front. What if you need to winch yourself backwards? Totally possible with enough snatch blocks (See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ampWzHMez28 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tI3HtgdCY)
  
• Synthetic Rope Shackles/Soft Shackles: The less heavy and/or metal items under load the safer you'll be. You'll also never have to deal with stuck pins in a d-shackle.
  
• Synthetic Rope: I wish I had gone with this from the get go. It's much much lighter. No metal splinters, no rusting, doesn't unwind automatically when you disengage the clutch, and if it snaps it does not hold nearly as much energy as a metal cable. Dyneema is the material king when it comes to synthetic ropes. If you go synthetic is highly recommend a rope that comes with a dual layer to resist abrasion and uv damage. Though being tucked in an ARB you won't really need to worry about uv damage. I also believe UV damage is severely over blown and not as big of a problem as the internet makes it out to be. I went with a 3/8" synthetic rope and it has a max limit of 20k lbs which is stronger than an equivalent steel cable. If you switch to a Synthetic rope you will need to switch from a roller fairlead to a hawse fairlead. The rollers can damage the rope fibers especially if the metal cable has caused any burs. A hawse fairlead is smooth and allows the rope to just slide over it.
  
• Tree Savers: These are basically short and thick tow straps. I have an 3"x8' strap that has a load limit of 30k lbs. I will be adding a longer 10'-15' to my collection and a 2nd 8'. You will also need one to attach your snatch blocks too. If you just wrap the cable around a tree and hook it to itself you will damage the tree by cutting into it and you will weaken your cable is not permanently damage it as the bend around the tree as the outer strands travel a longer distance so they will receive more of the load than the inside strands.
  
• Winch Line Dampener: This serves a dual purpose. Mainly used so if your steel cable snaps this will cause drag as it flies through the air and significantly cuts down on the risk of you getting hit by the cable/hook/shackle. It will also highlight your winch line so if you're in an area with other vehicles/people they don't drive through your winch line and get hurt. It's best to have 2 so you can put 1 a few feet from each end. If you put 1 in the middle you still run the risk of it traveling half the distance of your line which can be long enough to hit your vehicle or a person.
  
• Winch Hook Alternatives: This will be my next winch mod. Hooks can break and straps can slip off. With a closed loop system you do not need to worry about a strap slipping off or the hook breaking. Factor55 is a very popular brand. With their thimble style you can slip a soft shackle through it. They are also very light weight reducing mass so if something snaps it will not recoil with as much. (though with a synthetic rope you don't need to worry about recoil as much as it's rare for it to hold enough energy to hurt someone but still always practice safety first by keeping everyone not involved in the recovery far away.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

x2

I would like to put synthetic on my M8000 but gotta keep the KJ running first. LOL

 

[Renedave]

I would like to put synthetic on my M8000 but gotta keep the KJ running first. LOL

I bought Master Pull synthetic line from Tech Tim on eBay for stupid cheap, two ~100' 1/2" 15000lbs lines and I'm good for the foreseeable future. If I can find a link I'll post it.

If you plan on using your winch ever, get synthetic line. Period. Synthetic has its idiosyncrasies, but it's worlds better than steel cable.

 

[angelis_digital]

Are there any advantages to steel?

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Lower cost and I do believe it's more forgiving if it gets rubbed against a rock or something. Usually have to sleeve synthetics for stuff like that.

 

[Renedave]

Steel is more durable to abuse and when left exposed to the elements. Over time UV light breaks down the poly chains that give synthetic fibers their strength. Dirt and mud on the line will abrade it, just like running it over a rock or tree. The first wind needs to be high temp material and wound properly so heat from the drum doesn’t melt it. Also, synthetic line is fatter than steel cable for the same weight rating, so you may not be able to spool as much of it in your winch and the pull rating suffers a bit more in the outer wraps.

But, when a steel cable breaks there’s a much higher chance of it being a very bad day. When synthetic line breaks it just drops because it doesn’t store potential energy like steel cable can, and anyone with half a brain can tie a knot in it and resume a recovery. Learn how to splice it and you can repair or lengthen synthetic line like a pro, and make hook or thimble mounts that are every bit as strong as the line itself. Plus, no more steel shards in your hand from absentmindedly running your hand on a steel cable without glove on!

Keep the line/winch covered, soak it in a bucket of soapy water when it’s dirty, and use a cable guard to keep it from chafing, and a synthetic line will be equal to or more reliable than steel.

 

[M38 Bob]

Winch related question; Do regular users upgrade the battery? Factory battery mounting pad is pretty restrictive. From previous winch use years ago I found out the hard way that excessive use can sap the battery to the point where even with engine running, current gets low enough engine dies. Then with totally dead battery one is truly FUBARED.

 

[Renedave]

Ideally I like to have the winch running off the alternator, not the battery, so I upgrade that as well and keep the engine revs high enough that I can feel the winch pulling at full strength.

It used to be that deep cycle batteries were a bad idea with winches. The high amp draw would overheat and destroy the cathode. Not sure if this is still the case, but I go for the highest possible cranking amp starter battery.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Winch related question; Do regular users upgrade the battery? Factory battery mounting pad is pretty restrictive. From previous winch use years ago I found out the hard way that excessive use can sap the battery to the point where even with engine running, current gets low enough engine dies. Then with totally dead battery one is truly FUBARED.

I just got a East Penn made AGM battery. Works fine. If I'm doing a harder pull I like to keep the revs up a bit and don't shut it down for a bit after winching.

 

[Myke]

Are there any advantages to steel?

You can drag it over rocks and not damage it. Though this is mitigated on a synthtic line by using a sheath that you would position where it will drag and this lets the rope slide over the rock/through the sheath to keep it protected. Most synthetic ropes will come with one.

Also steel is thicker than the equivalent synthetic. 3/8 Synthetic is ~20k lbs, 3/8 steel is ~14k lbs.

Winch related question; Do regular users upgrade the battery? Factory battery mounting pad is pretty restrictive. From previous winch use years ago I found out the hard way that excessive use can sap the battery to the point where even with engine running, current gets low enough engine dies. Then with totally dead battery one is truly FUBARED.

Yes it's a good idea to upgrade your battery/alt/wiring as a heavy pull can use up to 500amps. A dual battery would be best but a single high quality battery will work.

Ideally I like to have the winch running off the alternator, not the battery, so I upgrade that as well and keep the engine revs high enough that I can feel the winch pulling at full strength.

It used to be that deep cycle batteries were a bad idea with winches. The high amp draw would overheat and destroy the cathode. Not sure if this is still the case, but I go for the highest possible cranking amp starter battery.

The alternator only puts out 120-160 amps while winching can use up to 500 amps. A high quality deep cycle agm will work fine.


I am sponsored by UltRanger but I approached them about it after purchasing my first synthetic cable from them. Their pricing is fantastic and I've done some serious pulls with my winch. The rope has been wet, in mud, frozen, used in sand and I have not had any issues. The model I went with comes with a second layer to keep all this crap out of the actual Dyneema fibers.

Ranger 3/8" x 100' Jacket Dyneema Synthetic Winch Rope 20,500LBs with Removable Rock Guard by Ultranger they sell it for $139. Typically you're looking at $300-500 for the more known name brands but you're just getting ripped off because it's all Dyneema in the end.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

$139 is a steal! Especially because it's not steel.

 

[M38 Bob]

Been years since I've used a winch. Had a 12,000lb "Beaver Winch" on an old 1976 F150. Hell of a winch, two speed transmission, and in low would lift the truck vertical. Soaked up amps like a sponge though. Ended up mounting two 1,200 amp group 31 truck batteries. Literally knocked the nose off a starter on the old 390, and broke the retainer spring off several more.

 

[tjkj2002]

Winch related question; Do regular users upgrade the battery? Factory battery mounting pad is pretty restrictive. From previous winch use years ago I found out the hard way that excessive use can sap the battery to the point where even with engine running, current gets low enough engine dies. Then with totally dead battery one is truly FUBARED.

A high amp AGM flat panel battery works best,Odyssey makes some very good batteries for winching.

Ideally I like to have the winch running off the alternator, not the battery, so I upgrade that as well and keep the engine revs high enough that I can feel the winch pulling at full strength.

It used to be that deep cycle batteries were a bad idea with winches. The high amp draw would overheat and destroy the cathode. Not sure if this is still the case, but I go for the highest possible cranking amp starter battery.

Like stated already you will fry a alternator trying to run a winch just from it.Even with the engine at 3000 rpm's a Renny alt(160 amp version) will only put out 120 amps at best.

I am sponsored by UltRanger but I approached them about it after purchasing my first synthetic cable from them. Their pricing is fantastic and I've done some serious pulls with my winch. The rope has been wet, in mud, frozen, used in sand and I have not had any issues. The model I went with comes with a second layer to keep all this crap out of the actual Dyneema fibers.

Ranger 3/8" x 100' Jacket Dyneema Synthetic Winch Rope 20,500LBs with Removable Rock Guard by Ultranger they sell it for $139. Typically you're looking at $300-500 for the more known name brands but you're just getting ripped off because it's all Dyneema in the end.

Funny how all those knock off company's say that.

All synthetic winch lines are not Dyneema besides Dyneema.They are a new comer to the synthetic winch line business.

 

[Renedave]

steel is thicker than the equivalent synthetic. 3/8 Synthetic is ~20k lbs, 3/8 steel is ~14k lbs.

Yep, I'm an idiot. I spaced on how weak the thin steel cable that comes with most winches is. The aftermarket 15-20k synthetic line is double the load capacity.

The alternator only puts out 120-160 amps while winching can use up to 500 amps.

Like stated already you will fry a alternator trying to run a winch just from it.Even with the engine at 3000 rpm's a Renny alt(160 amp version) will only put out 120 amps at best.

So allow me some fudge room with what I meant. You should be able to tug a 2000lbs load from just the alternator output if it can crank out 150 amps. Any more load you're still drawing that from the alternator and making up the difference with the battery. The battery is the weak link in the chain, so I want to beef up the changing system to rely on it instead as much as possible. Real world recoveries get in the way of this plan, but it's a goal. At higher loads the alternator's still producing the max output anyway, so if winching from just the alternator was going to fry it winching from the alternator and battery would fry it just as bad.

I'm not directly familiar with Renny alternators but I'm mystified by the comment. The crank to alternator pulley ratio is 3:1 on the Liberty, so the rated output (assuming it's a standard based rating and not a marketing rating) should occur at 2000 engine RPM, 6000 shaft RPM, and the output curve typically gets really flat after that. I've seen high output alternators meet and exceed their rated output, so if the Renny isn't meeting their rating they're either lying or that alternator is broken.

 

[tjkj2002]

So allow me some fudge room with what I meant. You should be able to tug a 2000lbs load from just the alternator output if it can crank out 150 amps. Any more load you're still drawing that from the alternator and making up the difference with the battery. The battery is the weak link in the chain, so I want to beef up the changing system to rely on it instead as much as possible. Real world recoveries get in the way of this plan, but it's a goal. At higher loads the alternator's still producing the max output anyway, so if winching from just the alternator was going to fry it winching from the alternator and battery would fry it just as bad.

I'm not directly familiar with Renny alternators but I'm mystified by the comment. The crank to alternator pulley ratio is 3:1 on the Liberty, so the rated output (assuming it's a standard based rating and not a marketing rating) should occur at 2000 engine RPM, 6000 shaft RPM, and the output curve typically gets really flat after that. I've seen high output alternators meet and exceed their rated output, so if the Renny isn't meeting their rating they're either lying or that alternator is broken.

I've yet to see a alternator without being modded reach it's rated peak.

Most winches will draw over 350 amps when you 1st hit that switch,load or no load and your forgetting the 40-50 amps that are needed just to keep the engine running with no load.


Battery tech has come along way.Take my Odyssey PC1750,it can handle a 3000 amp draw for a five seconds without damage,1500 amps for like a 30 seconds.

Your battery is now the main component in your system and Chrysler's will tell you when it's not up to par.

 

[nbas]

I've yet to see a alternator without being modded reach it's rated peak.

Most winches will draw over 350 amps when you 1st hit that switch,load or no load and your forgetting the 40-50 amps that are needed just to keep the engine running with no load.


Battery tech has come along way.Take my Odyssey PC1750,it can handle a 3000 amp draw for a five seconds without damage,1500 amps for like a 30 seconds.

Your battery is now the main component in your system and Chrysler's will tell you when it's not up to par.

So what you are saying is, that we should operate the winch with the engine off but we have to have the correct battery (like an Odyssey PC1750) in order to be able to provide the required amps?

 

[tjkj2002]

So what you are saying is, that we should operate the winch with the engine off but we have to have the correct battery (like an Odyssey PC1750) in order to be able to provide the required amps?

No.