2003 KJ, loose upper control arm bolts?

[DallanC]

Good points, the advice is gladly taken.

So do you all think the spacer was used to counter sagged springs, or that it was used to just lift the vehicle with existing springs that later sagged? The main thing I'm asking is if its a overall lift kit then replacing the front struts/springs with new ones minus the spacer may create a ride height difference with the rears, that will then need to be corrected.

IDK what the height difference will be with new replacement springs minus the spacer vs new springs with spacer vs existing setup. I am already slipping down the $$$ rabbit-hole where a rattle has turned into a un-needed UCA replacement, now new strut assembly... and I still dont know if any of this will fix the rattle, which i still believe is due to loose UCA bolts.

Should the existing spacer be used with new springs?

-DallanC

 

[Damotee]

and I still dont know if any of this will fix the rattle, which i still believe is due to loose UCA bolts.

-DallanC

Might be a silly question, but have you checked the ball joints with those control arms? My UCA's made a terrible rattle over bumps. I replaced the UCA's with better ones that are suited to my lifted Jeep and the rattle stopped. It wasn't until the tyre was off and the Jeep was off the ground that I could see the torn boot on the ball joint, otherwise it looked fine - I couldn't tell that the ball joint was busted with the Jeep sitting normally.

My rattle was only on one side - the side with the busted upper ball joint. I replaced both sides with new UCA's.

edit; have we eliminated the shock absorber as the problem? I just re-read that you have replaced the UCA's and the noise is still there..

 

[DallanC]

Might be a silly question, but have you checked the ball joints with those control arms? My UCA's made a terrible rattle over bumps. I replaced the UCA's with better ones that are suited to my lifted Jeep and the rattle stopped. It wasn't until the tyre was off and the Jeep was off the ground that I could see the torn boot on the ball joint, otherwise it looked fine - I couldn't tell that the ball joint was busted with the Jeep sitting normally.

My rattle was only on one side - the side with the busted upper ball joint. I replaced both sides with new UCA's.

edit; have we eliminated the shock absorber as the problem? I just re-read that you have replaced the UCA's and the noise is still there..

The guy I bought it from said he had just replaced all the ball joints. I also jacked it up and applied pressure to the tire with a long pry bar to see if I could get something to move... the only thing that did move was the UCA attachment points, they clearly moved in and out on the bolt through the wheel well mounts abut 3/16th of an inch.

But yea, the plan is to replace the shock and mounts this weekend. After that if the rattle still exists I'm going to have to weld in the UCA holes a bit and redrill.

-DallanC

 

[tommudd]

Good points, the advice is gladly taken.

So do you all think the spacer was used to counter sagged springs, or that it was used to just lift the vehicle with existing springs that later sagged? The main thing I'm asking is if its a overall lift kit then replacing the front struts/springs with new ones minus the spacer may create a ride height difference with the rears, that will then need to be corrected.

IDK what the height difference will be with new replacement springs minus the spacer vs new springs with spacer vs existing setup. I am already slipping down the $$$ rabbit-hole where a rattle has turned into a un-needed UCA replacement, now new strut assembly... and I still dont know if any of this will fix the rattle, which i still believe is due to loose UCA bolts.

Should the existing spacer be used with new springs?

-DallanC

With new " stock type " springs and shocks in front you will be at 19 inches, ( middle of the wheel to bottom of the flare .
But you should do all 4 springs and shocks. With as bad as the fronts are, rears are just as bad I'll bet.
New coilovers in front
struts are on cars without Upper Control Arms
Still bet the rattle is not the upper control arm, but of course with that spacer lift, they love to eat UCAs for breakfast .
Unless some left it loose for a long time , highly doubt its wallowed out
But then I've only been doing suspensions for 40 years

 

[DallanC]

With new " stock type " springs and shocks in front you will be at 19 inches, ( middle of the wheel to bottom of the flare .
But you should do all 4 springs and shocks. With as bad as the fronts are, rears are just as bad I'll bet.
New coilovers in front
struts are on cars without Upper Control Arms
Still bet the rattle is not the upper control arm, but of course with that spacer lift, they love to eat UCAs for breakfast .
Unless some left it loose for a long time , highly doubt its wallowed out
But then I've only been doing suspensions for 40 years

Yea sorry I've been using the term strut and shock / spring assembly interchangeably in this thread.

Ok so with a flash of inspiration, this morning I quickly fabricobbled a magnetic mount for my gopro and we just returned from a test ride where I had the camera positioned to watch the UCA pivot point. With as loose as the bolt was, I was 90% sure that was the cause. We just watched the 10 minute footage bouncing down the roughest, closest road I expected to see that thing shifting in and out knocking against the body mount. I was pleasantly surprised to see it staying nicely in position, I could hear audio of rattles elsewhere, presumably in the shock or shock mounts. I was rather surprised to see the UCA shift forward and rear a slight amount as we braked / accelerated. Being a new UCA its designed to flex a bit but it still was interesting to watch the suspension articulate.

(I could post a few minutes of video if anyone was curious to see it).

Anyway, we will tear into it in the next few minutes. I have a complete new coilover / shock assembly ready to go. We'll move the lift spacer over onto the new assembly and toss'er in. I've already got one ordered for the passenger side and we'll get that installed when we get the time (going out of town for the upcoming holiday).

As soon as that gets done we'll get it in for an alignment, then take a harder look at the rears. They aren't nearly as stacked as the fronts but its worth looking them over closer and we'll R&R if needed.

I'll give an update after we get things done and if we spot the actual cause.


-DallanC

 

[tommudd]

Yea sorry I've been using the term strut and shock / spring assembly interchangeably in this thread.

Ok so with a flash of inspiration, this morning I quickly fabricobbled a magnetic mount for my gopro and we just returned from a test ride where I had the camera positioned to watch the UCA pivot point. With as loose as the bolt was, I was 90% sure that was the cause. We just watched the 10 minute footage bouncing down the roughest, closest road I expected to see that thing shifting in and out knocking against the body mount. I was pleasantly surprised to see it staying nicely in position, I could hear audio of rattles elsewhere, presumably in the shock or shock mounts. I was rather surprised to see the UCA shift forward and rear a slight amount as we braked / accelerated. Being a new UCA its designed to flex a bit but it still was interesting to watch the suspension articulate.

(I could post a few minutes of video if anyone was curious to see it).

Anyway, we will tear into it in the next few minutes. I have a complete new coilover / shock assembly ready to go. We'll move the lift spacer over onto the new assembly and toss'er in. I've already got one ordered for the passenger side and we'll get that installed when we get the time (going out of town for the upcoming holiday).

As soon as that gets done we'll get it in for an alignment, then take a harder look at the rears. They aren't nearly as stacked as the fronts but its worth looking them over closer and we'll R&R if needed.

I'll give an update after we get things done and if we spot the actual cause.


-DallanC

I don't want to reread as I think you said you were reinstalling that spacer lift :emotions34: Oh my .......
The rears won't stack, well f they are they are done and have been for years.
But stock type suspension is basically worthless , when I bought the 04 new, before it had 20,000 miles it was tossed in the hollow all springs and shocks.
Had one customer who bought a used 05 wanted new stock suspension, due to the crappy ride with 60,000 miles. Tried to talk some sense into him but no luck, week later he was back telling me to order new OME coils and shocks. So I still have 2 week old stock type suspension laying around, he traded it, well gave me them, in on the new setup .

 

[DallanC]

Ok so success!

R&R done, all noises seem to be gone. Ride is indeed noticeably better. Took about 2.5 hours approx. Should be able to do the passenger side in much less time now that we know what to do, when the parts get here anyway.

The main issue I think I had in describing all of this to you folk, is I thought it had a lift kit. I thought the spacer was part of the lift and I needed to transfer it to the new assembly to maintain equal ride height. When I got the old unit out and sat them side by side, I clearly saw the spacer wasn't needed and no I did not use it. The new assembly was longer than the old one anyway.

Height on driver side from center of wheel to wheelwell is 18 3/4"

I appreciate the help and suggestions.


-DallanC

 

[tommudd]

Ok so success!

R&R done, all noises seem to be gone. Ride is indeed noticeably better. Took about 2.5 hours approx. Should be able to do the passenger side in much less time now that we know what to do, when the parts get here anyway.

The main issue I think I had in describing all of this to you folk, is I thought it had a lift kit. I thought the spacer was part of the lift and I needed to transfer it to the new assembly to maintain equal ride height. When I got the old unit out and sat them side by side, I clearly saw the spacer wasn't needed and no I did not use it. The new assembly was longer than the old one anyway.

Height on driver side from center of wheel to wheelwell is 18 3/4"

I appreciate the help and suggestions.


-DallanC

You did/ do have a lift , the spacer the lift
So with new you are now 1/4 inch below new stock height, may level out after you get other side done

 

[Damotee]

So what exactly was the problem then? Im a bit confused as to what you replaced?
Id love to see the gopro footage, too

 

[DallanC]

So what exactly was the problem then? Im a bit confused as to what you replaced?
Id love to see the gopro footage, too

Problem(s) were loose Upper control arm bolt and blown shock coupled with stacked springs. Coils were hitting on larger bumps.

Replaced Left Upper control arm (not need in retrospect), replaced complete left shock/ coil spring assembly.

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Matching parts for right side will be here tuesday and we will R&R that, and hopefully a alignment Wed or Thursday.


-DallanC

 

[tommudd]

I've had them in to my place with 100,000 miles less than yours, with springs done worn out and shocks blown ( many of them )
And people complaining of similar noises
Now onto your measurements , confused as stock is 19, and unless someone replaced shocks and springs recently and did a clevis lift no way to be that height
Does it have any type of spacer lift ?

interesting

 

[Damotee]

Problem(s) were loose Upper control arm bolt and blown shock coupled with stacked springs. Coils were hitting on larger bumps.

Replaced Left Upper control arm (not need in retrospect), replaced complete left shock/ coil spring assembly.

Awesome! Glad its sorted. It will drive even better when the other side is done.

 

[DallanC]

interesting

Yep, you were absolutely correct.

One question of clarification... for these bushing lifts. The result of the lift kit is to increase the length of the spring assembly from the upper mount, to where it bolts to the lower control arm, this in turn lifts the vehicle.

For bushing mounts, as I understand it and using a daystar lift as an example, a bushing is placed between the spring and the lower spring base. Because the shock itself is of fixed length, a new upper mounting plate is included to shift the shock mounting point down, by the same amount as the buffer takes up. This increases the overall length of the assembly from the upper mounting plate to the bottom of the spring where it attaches to the fork, thereby lifting the vehicle.

Correct?

In this image, the silver brackets show the amount the shock bolt is lowered by, which is equal to the space the new buffer shifts the spring up from its OEM position.

You must be registered for see images attach

My setup did not have a new upper bracket. It had the OEM upper mounting bracket.

On the old unit we removed, there was a bushing inserted in between the spring and lower spring base... but there was *not* a upper bracket that lowered the shock mounting point... therefore this could not truly lift the vehicle, I just dont see how as the overall length of the unit hasn't changed. With the unit removed and sitting next to a new unit, the new unit was actually longer.

So, all it looks like the bushing did was put more compression on the bound spring, possibly to counteract spring sag. One thing I did notice was the shock was not fully inserted into the fork, that actually would lift the vehicle by 3/8" or so (I fully seated the fork to the shock on reassembly).

My problem is solved, I'm happy for that... but some comments around the bushing and "lift" seem a little confusing looking over the actual parts. Had there been a new upper lift bracket we'd have broken down the new shock assembly and installed it, but as it was... all I can see the buffer doing is putting more preload on the shock.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in these assuptions. I'm more of a old school CJ jeeper, but always happy to learn from the pro's...


-DallanC

 

[HoosierJeeper]

The mount is the same all the time, none of them lower the shock at all. I didn't know the Daystar came with a different one. Basically with lift and the stock shock you're changing what range of travel you're in....for example let's say at stock you have 4" of up travel and 4" of down travel. With the longer coils of a lift, you'd be shifting towards say have 2" of down travel and 6" of up travel. That's the way I've understood it for years, maybe I wrong, maybe I'm right either way I'll keep believing it.

 

[DallanC]

The mount is the same all the time, none of them lower the shock at all. I didn't know the Daystar came with a different one.

When I was first researching bushing lifts, most had the replacement upper mount, thereby lowering the entire assembly. But, there are many ways to lift a vehicle, some just space between the upper mount and the frame by X amount.

Basically with lift and the stock shock you're changing what range of travel you're in....for example let's say at stock you have 4" of up travel and 4" of down travel. With the longer coils of a lift, you'd be shifting towards say have 2" of down travel and 6" of up travel. That's the way I've understood it for years, maybe I wrong, maybe I'm right either way I'll keep believing it.

Completely makes sense in this case, its increasing the preload on the spring, thereby raising up the natural ride height of the vehicle and "lifting it". As stated previously, its super ******* the spring itself.

Anywho, thanks for the clarification. I have another unrelated question on a part I dont recognize. I'll get a picture posted in a new thread.


-DallanC

 

[tommudd]

Some include , some do not that upper part
Daystar using that puck does provide lift, but also compresses the spring more to get the lift.
In reality ANY spacer style lift compromises the springs and shocks putting extra pressure on them and creating more wear
And then people take a 65-70,000 miles spring and install a spacer style lift, oh boy ! Well they think so. Weak springs from the factory already sagged , shocks worn out , bad situation all around.
Front springs are only rated at 310 lb from the factory, should of been 340-350 at least Oh well .................
I wish I would of kept all those spacer lifts I've removed over the years I could retire a second time now ! :happy175: