2006 Liberty Sport Overhaul

[ScamSurvivor]

Update

The old radiator and water pump showed no obvious signs of leaks or damage.

I took them to my local parts store and asked them to take a look. An experienced guy came over and after examining both said he could see no tell tale signs of leakage (caveat that couldn't tell what would happen under pressure). There was no coolant stain that he could see on radiator or water pump. The gasket on the water pump did not appear damaged and there was no build up of debris. It wasn't a new water pump, but the impellers appeared clean and working freely.

The radiator outlets showed some build up but nothing excessive, and the coolant flush runs clean on first flush. The thermostat looked good as new with very little debris and gasket in good order and opens correctly.

The only part visibly damaged has been the radiator cap, with a split 'gasket' or flange. Is it possible the dealership did a pressure test and the radiator cap gave a fault they've attributed elsewhere? (They did say on the phone: "The radiator is spraying in 3 places and the water pump is leaking". When I took it home there was no liquid anywhere. This was a bonafide Jeep service and sales dealership.

Replacing both cost me $280 and a few hours for which Im a lot better off and wiser so I don't regret it, but it's completely feasible I'm walking from one swindle to another (I did walk in saying "I just got this car" and holding a Mercedes key ring).

Is there a way to test both the water pump and radiator after removal? I'm just curious now and getting more than a little peeved...

 

[Conundrum2006]

A radiator shop would probably be best. I'm not sure how to pressure test it on its own. A pin hole leak can shoot it across the engine bay not staining the radiator.

Water pump has a weeper hole where it will drip slowly as it starts to fail, it may not show another signs of problems except for an occasional drop.

Both are old enough to be worn out.

FYI the thermostats are extremely sensitive, if you replace it go for Mopar parts. After markets tend to not work correctly.

Water pump I wouldn't sweat replacing.
Radiator, I don't know, when the are completely broken it's easy to see where it fails, pulling it prior to complete failure might be hard to trace. There are pressure testers for radiators, they simulate high pressure forcing even pin hole leaks to spray. Good in vehicle diagnostic tool. Outside the vehicle it will take some rigging.

Problem is any vehicle with Overheating or symptoms of a blown headgasket the easy to replace parts are blamed in hope of a fast fix so a lot of people start there looking for trouble. Eventually ending up at the serious engine repair. I don't know, some shops lead folks down that road to fleece them or out of laziness. I hope a actual jeep dealer did the work and saw the problems they said.


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[belvedere]

Strange...dried coolant leaves obvious white stains/deposits. Any leak is normally clearly visible once the affected part is removed.

 

[Conundrum2006]

How dirty is the radiator/engine bay to start with? How much of the fluid was still proper radiator fluid ?
I'd think if it were bad and constantly leaking there be traces everywhere it sprayed. But Pine hole leaks can only appear at certain pressures or temps. I dunno, I don't have a huge trust of shops to start with.

Either way it's not a bad to change them, if it's got a good thermostat and the air is burped out, maybe just maybe they have a running jeep. Assuming the shop was correct saying motor looked good, the cooling system should be 100% now unless the hoses are punk.


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[CactusJacked]

It hadn't occurred to me to take the person on the title to small claims...

You can't...well you could, but you would lose that case and end up paying both sides legal fees. The owner on title didn't sell the car to you. He sold it to the guy you bought it from, with full disclosure of the problems. The guy you bought it from is the one who scammed you.

 

[ScamSurvivor]

The cooling fluid looked "good": still had strong color and not really dirty. It's possible it had already had a flush? Perhaps the dealership topped it up for me to drive home. I'll ask.

White deposits: there ARE calcium type deposits speckled on the outer water pump. Possibly from the radiator? They look like part of the engine, not fresh.

The engine bay is not filthy but does have some grease/dirt build up in usual spots but not heavy/excessive compared to some I've seen. I asked about the grease/dirt build up at the shop and they said that's just regular engine deposits and not indicative of a leak. The engine parts are relatively clean but not recently cleaned.

Nothing was spraying when I took it home, and no evidence it had sprayed on the way home. I did not rev it high to check. I assumed any spray had dried/was in places I couldn't see (they were the experts after all...I wasn't second guessing at that stage, just trying to get on with it after finding out the sale was dodgy)

I put 2 new hoses on but the old hoses actually looked fine: still pliable, thin build up only that wipes off, edges still pliable and intact. I'll retain as backups.

I didn't seriously consider taking previous owner to small claims . History from I now understand is:

Owner A sold the car to a buyer she says lowballed her due apparent mechanical issues. She's not sure if mechanical issues are genuine, but sells the car at cheap price.
Owner B does not register the vehicle. Sells the vehicle to me with a fake grandparents car story and a pile maintenance receipts that disappear.
Owner C - Me- takes the car to dealership and gets told needs new radiator, water pump, brakes, rotors, calipers. I ask about head gasket and they say probably so and provide quote for that too.

I just went out to double check under the engine to see if I've missed anything and there is a significant oil leak to the rear of the engine block: covered in oil. It looks current, as in still dripping, I didn't notice it before, but Im not sure I looked from under driver door before. I have a compression test kit and will be completing that this weekend. The condition of the radiator/water pump may end up being moot points

 

[eradicator006]

We have just started the process of removing the radiator and waterpump.

Lessons so far:

Every youtube/how to thread assumes you know how to drain the coolant/where to find the drain/petcock

*The draincock is super obvious after you've done it once. For any that haven't, standing at the front of the car and looking down into the engine bay its the nub at the bottom right of the radiator.

There'll be a large hose on the bottom left, and the drain nub on the bottom right.

It's shaped with a nut facing out and a short valve below it. The nut pulls out slightly to allow coolant to drain from the valve (on the same nub). Ie, you can push a small hose onto this valve, turn the nut anti clockwise until it can be pulled out slightly, and coolant will flow in an orderly fashion.

To close, simply turn gently in a clockwise direction while pushing in. It's a 1/4-1/2 turn, not a full unscrew.

Every youtube/how-to video assumes you know how to remove clamps
*You need a water pipe wrench or a special clamp release tool, there's no other way. The screw out clamps aren't as bad, but won't be as reliable.

It's impossible to find a diagram that shows exactly where the connection points on the radiator are (and what to remove). We have paused to research a better diagram as having removed all the known bolts we are unable to release the radiator.
* Turned out the radiator has fixed clips that were pushed through the rubber flaps on either side, and in which the coolers were sitting. Needed to lift the coolers up and out of these clips, then push back through the rubber flaps to completely free the radiator. Then needed to remove the front body bar/hood catch assembly to lift the radiator out. We didn't remove the assembly, just unscrewed it from the body and left attached to the body bar we also unscrewed.

Such simple things but have caused us significant delays.

Any other hurdles we will hit?

Good thing you posted this. I'm getting ready to swap out the rad in my '05 and was under the assumption you could get those clamps off with pliers.

Will this tool work? Hose Clamp Pliers | Princess Auto

 

[Logan Savage]

I recently completed an engine swap in my 05 & didn't need any special tool to remove the clamps .

 

[tommudd]

Good thing you posted this. I'm getting ready to swap out the rad in my '05 and was under the assumption you could get those clamps off with pliers.

Will this tool work? Hose Clamp Pliers | Princess Auto

You can , no special tools needed, nice if you have them but again not needed

 

[ScamSurvivor]

Good thing you posted this. I'm getting ready to swap out the rad in my '05 and was under the assumption you could get those clamps off with pliers.

Will this tool work? Hose Clamp Pliers | Princess Auto

They look wide enough for sure. My short every day pliers did not have the reach for the bigger hoses, or the reservoir hose. I got by with a plumbers wrench but it was cumbersome.

 

[ScamSurvivor]

Update

Compression test complete

All 6 results were between 145-152 PSI.

At first I only loosened the sparkplugs and my first reading was 90 PSI in the red. I checked to see what could cause a bad reading (ever the optimist) and saw some comments advocating removal of all the spark plugs, not just loosening. I did so and retested, and it went up to 150.

One was 145, all others 148-152.

This is below the recommended 175 + but still in the 'green'. I can't find any threads or articles with more specifics so I'd be curious of any opinions.

** For various reasons I had to do the test with a cold engine. Just read that this could give lower readings.

 

[belvedere]

From your compression test results, my best guess is that you do not have a blown head gasket, but simply a high-mileage engine that has somewhat lower compression due to normal wear. With a blown HG, I would expect to see one cyl, or two adjacent cyls, with much lower compression.

 

[ScamSurvivor]

Thank you, that's welcome feedback,.

I'm left unsure as to who I've been more manipulated by, the seller or the dealership, but I've learnt so much from the experience and seems I've gotten lucky, could've been worse.

Before changing the brakes, rotors, calipers I think I'll get a second opinion....

 

[uss2defiant]

most shops have free brake inspection.

 

[Logan Savage]

I would take the radiator to a radiator shop & have it pressure tested . There is a small weep hole in the water pump right underneath the front center . If the pump is leaking that is more than likely where it was leaking from & there should be visible signs at the hole .
Did you hold the throttle open while doing the compression test ? Having the throttle butterfly open provides airflow & usually gives you a more accurate & higher compression reading .
As long as you have adequate battery power to turn the engine properly it shouldn't matter whether the spark plugs are in or out when doing a compression test . Your post about testing with the plugs in & then out leaves me confused . Of course you have to have the one out in the cylinder you're testing .
Sounds like you might have a serious oil leak . Hopefully it's not the rear main seal in the engine . If it is , the transmission will have to come out to replace the seal .

 

[uss2defiant]

you can pressure test the cooling system yourself.
most LAPs will have a pressure tester in their loan-a-tool program.
16 psi test I believe.

 

[tomknight]

As for brakes, I'm not sure I trust shops tons either. I have a BMW X5 with 180k miles, and have done almost everything but an engine swap on it.

I did the brakes on it about 2 years ago, and at the time, I was told all the calipers were bad also. I replaced the rotors/pads, and the calipers were fine. $1200 quotes were a $300 DIY.

 

[twixy79]

I am not sure of how much help this will be... But most of the work you listed can be completed by you. I mean most of it isn't that difficult. I tend to leave rebuilding engines to professionals, although in all fairness, I did rebuild my 07 mustangs engine with a lot of help from YouTube... And shockingly, she ran great til the day I sold her.
With all that being said.... Rotors, brakes and calipers CAN be a weekend thing if you prepare and make sure you have EVERYTHING you need.
Window regulator and the door lock are also pretty simple fixes and those parts are pretty inexpensive and easy to get your hands on.

But most importantly, I think you may want to consider the expense of having the engine rebuild first. I mean I would hate to spend all that time and money on a car knowing it's going to need an engine rebuild which would cost more than you paid for the car

 

[ScamSurvivor]

I would take the radiator to a radiator shop & have it pressure tested . There is a small weep hole in the water pump right underneath the front center . If the pump is leaking that is more than likely where it was leaking from & there should be visible signs at the hole .
Did you hold the throttle open while doing the compression test ? Having the throttle butterfly open provides airflow & usually gives you a more accurate & higher compression reading .
As long as you have adequate battery power to turn the engine properly it shouldn't matter whether the spark plugs are in or out when doing a compression test . Your post about testing with the plugs in & then out leaves me confused . Of course you have to have the one out in the cylinder you're testing .
Sounds like you might have a serious oil leak . Hopefully it's not the rear main seal in the engine . If it is , the transmission will have to come out to replace the seal .

The weep hole in the water pump was 'plugged'. The auto shop where I bought the replacement water pump said it could either have been deliberate or clogged up, but said there was no sign of a leak from the weep hole (so if plugged it was a while ago, but if it was clogged it might possibly have leaked under pressure from the dealership?)

I did not have the throttle butterfly open. Firstly, I hadn't read about removing the EFI fuse to prevent gas flooding so was worried about that, and just put mild acceleration on. If that's potentially a cause of low readings that's good for my situation.

Ref spark plugs, the original instructions were "loosen all plugs by half a turn" then remove and test one at a time. Other sites said remove all plugs due possibility of resistance giving a bad reading (?). I removed after my bad reading, and had better readings thereafter. Possible I didn't loosen enough perhaps.

I just had the oil changed, I asked about the patch spreading and was told nothing unusual down there.... He also said he thought brakes and rotors looked good, rear maybe more worn but still good. I'm having them checked today. It's quite feasible I've got a perfectly normal high mileage car through a regular-though illegal- curbside flipper, and a very dodgy dealership serviceman. BUT they also hesitated on doing the work, said it wasn't worth the car. So confusing...:Insane:

 

[tomknight]

Hope this all works out well for you. What a pain this has been.