4x2 vs 4x4. Need Help

[Atrus]

All of the trucks I have owned that are rear wheel drive have been horrible in the snow. The KJ and my wifes F150 both suck in the snow when they are in 2 wheel. The back ends are all over the road. I had a front wheel drive hatchback that would run circles around the KJ when in 2 wheel drive.

Jeep = 4x4

But hey, at least you now have a Jeep right ?

FWD versus RWD. ANY RWD vehicle has the tendency to whip the ass end around. You're comparing apples to oranges with that analysis. I think a 2wd KJ would be just fine in most conditions that he'd face. Hell, I live in MI and drove a Firebird for my first car. Low, crappy tires (I was 16 and poor) and RWD, and I made it fine and never got stuck. It's the driver 99% of the time, not the vehicle.

 

[Atrus]

Ahem....

as someone who has had a KJ with ESP...

... and has driven in the snow in 2WD....

The ESP *does* in fact HELP. It doesn't at ALL make it into a 4x4 by any means, but it does HELP.

An open differential will naturally transmit the power to the wheel with the least traction. That's just how it works. In order to guarantee the power split 50/50, you'll need a locker.

But anyway, the ESP will brake the wheel with the least traction and the power will go to the wheel with the most traction. So if you're in a case where one rear tire is on ice and the other isn't....

Without ESP: The tire which is on ice will spin, and the other will do nothing.
With ESP: The tire which is on ice will get braked, thanks to the ESP, and the other will move, which will get the vehicle moving again.

I've tried and tested this way too many times to know.

So... don't feel SO bad. But I'd have certainly purchased the 4x4 Jeep regardless.

This is just an example to get my point across. Now I'm not saying that all situations will be similar. Now if both tires don't have any traction, then you're out of luck and stuck, and the ESP will most likely slow you down. Just play around with the ESP on / off (which isn't actually off, just desensitized) to see what works for you in different situations.

Fully agree, I think the ESP in my '07 works well.

 

[sleeve]

Well before we all go and give this guy a hard time about the 4x2 lets just think for a minute about the real difference between the two vehicles.

#1 4x4 will help you get moving in the snow. Sure a 4x4 is great in the winter. Most people say this because it's the chance for all of us (me included) to actually enjoy the power tranfer to all 4 wheels while we drive to work. So 4x4 is a plus for getting you moving.

#2 4x4 doesn't help you stop. Now lets think about the down sides, having power going to all four wheels will never help you stop. In fact, some SUV drivers think that because they have 4x4, they should drive faster in incliment weather when really they shouldn't be going any faster than the rest of the traffic. Your brakes do all the stopping. Not the 4 wheel drive system. So, no real advantage there..

#3 4x4 doesn't help you turn. This here is the same basic thing as the braking. Just because you can out accelerate the guy next to you on a snow covered road doesn't mean that you'll actually be able to turn any better. In fact, the guy going slower has a greater chance of not crashing in a panic steer condition, because he isn't being over confident about his driving. So again, no advantage 4x4

#4 4x2 is only going to be a problem in really deep, un-plowed snow. So where does a 4x4 really shine? On unplowed roads, while you are accelerating. That's it... The rest is up to good responsible WINTER driving. In the spring, summer and fall you'll probably not even notice or need the 4x4. So advantage you really.


I wouldn't be too worried that you have the 4x2 version at all. It's not the end of the world in my eyes. All you need is some extra time to get moving on those days when the plow trucks haven't gotten to your street yet. The rest of the time, it's a moot point about which platform is better.

Plusses to the 4x2:
1) Less maintenance cost due to lack of transfer case and front diff
2) Better MPG from the lighter weight
3) No need to worry about busted CV boot's on the front half shafts since you don't have them.

 

[BluPhant]

X2.

What if you just bought some snow chains and fit some decent winter tyres...

That and your ESP will let you plough through almost anything NY winter can throw at you.

hows the Barcelona snow treatin ya??? I agree tho, you're much better off with a 4x2 jeep than the Hyundai.

-Blu

 

[ATXKJ]

As I had mentioned over at LOST - I got to live in Colorado Springs for 3 years - and for the first 2 - I drove a Camaro - and then I got an FJ40 - so I can easily say you don't have to have 4x4 - you can drive in snow with 2wd - just get good tires and be careful. However the real difference was the Camaro in snow -I was constantly nervous - every corner every slowdown speedup - was the opportunity for a wreck, in the FJ40 - snow was fun.

Also to sleeve's 4 points - if 4x4 doesn't help in stopping or turning - then you haven't learned to drive it properly.
in stopping - you let engine compression slow you - much better control than brakes - you can do it in 2 wheel drive - but if the engine has too much compression - you'll break the tires loose.

in turning - the front wheel drive will pull you through a corner - where 2 wheel drive will plow a lot of snow as you go straight.

deep snow you can do chains on 2wd - but they're a pain.

but the biggest thing was that 4x4 was fun.

 

[sleeve]

It's all about traction in the WINTER. It's very easy to drive a 4x2 properly in the snow.

4x4 offers no advantage in braking and turning. If you are relying on all four tires, than you are driving too fast for the conditions.

 

[itsajeepthing]

Also to sleeve's 4 points - if 4x4 doesn't help in stopping or turning - then you haven't learned to drive it properly.

in stopping - you let engine compression slow you - much better control than brakes - you can do it in 2 wheel drive - but if the engine has too much compression - you'll break the tires loose.

in turning - the front wheel drive will pull you through a corner - where 2 wheel drive will plow a lot of snow as you go straight.
.

x2

 

[Atrus]

If we're talking braking, I'll agree with Sleeve in practice, and ATXKJ in theory. Reason is in the snow, I never have the engine RPM's up enough to effectively "engine brake". The "engine breaking" 2 wheel (which is really 1 wheel) and 4 wheel (which is actually 2 wheel) is a moot point in my eyes. I see no difference from a 4x4 to a 4x2 in braking, other than there's more weight in a 4x4 so a 4x2 should have the advantage there.

If we're talking turning, I agree with ATXKJ in practice - I do believe that 4x4 helps you turn vs a 4x2 because instead of trying to plow the front end through a turn, the drive wheel helps to bring it around under it's own power. That's why FWD is better in the snow. I do agree with Sleeve that if your speed is reduced, then you don't require this feature. I drive agressively enough to notice it. So, do I NEED it? No. Do I find it helps? Yes.


Cliff's notes:
Braking - IMO, 4x4 braking is at a slight (maybe immaterial) disadvantage over a 4x2
Turning - IMO, 4x4 has an advantage over a 4x2

In the 4x4 vs 4x2 overall arguement, unless you live in a very snowy area (deep snow), I don't see the REQUIREMENT for the 4x4, however, I do think it makes driving easier and less stressful.

 

[itsajeepthing]

4x4 offers no advantage in braking and turning.

I respectfully disagree. My manual trans in PTfwd with a gentle downshift, helps to always keep at least one tire in the front, and one tire in the back turning while applying the brakes. A turning wheel will always have more traction than a locked up wheel.

I totally agree with you that 4wd creates a false sense of security which can translate to dangerous driving for the conditions, but fwd does offer improved control for both turning and stopping on snow/ice (if you know how to use it).

 

[tjkj2002]

4x4 doesn't help you turn.

If your open/open sure but when I had my DTT up front and put it in 4wd on snow/ice that DTT really helped in turning.I basically just turned the wheels and my KJ turned,even on ice,that DTT is killer up front on snow/ice covered roads.

4x4 doesn't help you stop.

No totally true.If you know how to drive and downshift(compression braking) having it in 4wd will help you stop faster,even faster then in 2wd using compression braking.Plus the natural parisitic drag in torque caused by being in 4wd will help you slow down faster then if you were in only 2wd,now I'm not talking huge gains unless you use the downshifting method.

If you know how to drive you don't also need ESP/ABS at all.I know I can stop faster in my non-ABS KJ on ice then most others could in a ABS equipted KJ.But then again I know my KJ and I grew up without ABS/ESP driving on snow/ice.

 

[Drucifer]

Think Ill have problems in the snow?

And pardon me for being a total noob.... Whats KJ stand for? "J" Im assuming is for Jeep...

No more than any other two wheel drive, but a lot more than a 4WD.

 

[Drucifer]

Thanks, TBJ...

I chose the 4x2 because it was a 2007 (the 4x4 was a 2006) and it still had 20,000 miles left on the warranty. Plus it was $1,900 cheaper.

Honestly, Im regretting not taking a closer look at the Hyundai Tuscon

Why were looking at jeeps in the first place?

 

[jnaut]

FWD versus RWD. ANY RWD vehicle has the tendency to whip the ass end around. You're comparing apples to oranges with that analysis. I think a 2wd KJ would be just fine in most conditions that he'd face. Hell, I live in MI and drove a Firebird for my first car. Low, crappy tires (I was 16 and poor) and RWD, and I made it fine and never got stuck. It's the driver 99% of the time, not the vehicle.

I'd also like to add that one should slow down in the snow. You know, just as a precaution.

 

[jnaut]

Also to sleeve's 4 points - if 4x4 doesn't help in stopping or turning - then you haven't learned to drive it properly.
in stopping - you let engine compression slow you - much better control than brakes -

Agreed. I'd also like to throw in that Engine braking should be what you use whether you're in 4x4 or 4x2 when in snow or ice.

Caution will carry you quite far in bad conditions.

 

[icarl]

Engine braking in 4x4 or 4x2 does help you to skid less on sheer ice than brakes alone. The maximum stopping traction of a tire is when it is slightly skidding. But locked up on ice is easy to do with brakes. Engine braking helps control skidding easier. This is something abs tries to do as well. The tires make more of a difference here though than whether you are engine braking or not. On sheer ice i would rather have 4 winter tires than try to engine brake while sliding sideways.

 

[icarl]

All of the trucks I have owned that are rear wheel drive have been horrible in the snow. The KJ and my wifes F150 both suck in the snow when they are in 2 wheel. The back ends are all over the road. I had a front wheel drive hatchback that would run circles around the KJ when in 2 wheel drive.

Jeep = 4x4

But hey, at least you now have a Jeep right ?

This is true. However, you can help improve this by using winter tires and by putting some weight over the rear axle. The weight will give you more traction like the FWD has. The FWD has more traction because the engine is sitting on top of it. A better Solution - relocate the engine to the rear axle - just kidding.

 

[icarl]

Help me out here guys...what engine braking? Most of you drive auto ******'s.

My auto Voyager used to thunder down any hill at 50 Mph in first gear...I needed the brakes.

Lots of times when i am coming up to the lights if i hit the brakes i will start sliding if its icy. However if i shift the auto into 2nd or 1st gear, depending on how fast i am going, the engine will slow me down and i will not slide as easy. However if i am going like 50 mph and i throw it into 1st then i watch my tail slide past me.

Here is another interesting tidbit. When i am almost stopped on ice i will often need to also throw it into neutral because at this point the engine starts to work against me. Throwing the vehicle into neutral and gently applying the brakes works also. On ice more torque = less traction. Neutral = zero torque. If you start sliding around the corner throw it into neutral and keep your foot off the brakes and you will regain some traction. If you exceed the traction of your tires going around a corner the 4x4 may not help. In this case, throw it into neutral and do not touch the brakes.

Another method is to powerslide around a corner. Apply controlled acceleration while turning the steering wheel to slide the rear end around. You can also use the e-brake on a RWD vehicle With a FWD vehicle use the e-brake while accelerating. I've done this before to avoid collisions when i could not stop in time. One time with the jeep i drove right into the ditch with 4 feet of snow in it to avoid running into the back of someone. I just put it in 4x4 low and drove it right out.

Its easier to do these things then to try and explain them though. You have to practice them first. Anybody who has driven in snow and ice for many years knows what i am talking about.

 

[jnaut]

Help me out here guys...what engine braking? Most of you drive auto ******'s.

My auto Voyager used to thunder down any hill at 50 Mph in first gear...I needed the brakes.

Holy cow you must have had that engine wrapped out.

My KJ will almost maintain a 30mph speed if I drop it to second on some of the steeper hills around here. It will sloooowly start to speed up, but I can tap the brakes and bring it back down again. By not riding the brakes, It it saves the brake rotors and pads too by keeping the brake temps down. A lot of people have no concept as to just how hot their rotors get when they ride the brakes.

 

[chefdab]

Maybe he got the 4x2 so he'd have a jump start on a solid axle swap?

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[pipeliner]

Help needed here......................

What's this "Snow" stuff you keep talking about?