Bought a non-working '02 Liberty, where to start?

[Conundrum2006]

This video will help. I've found Eric the car guy very informative.
As he demonstrated you can often hear the difference by tapping the top of the piston with a long screwdriver

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BrqkhZmDnHQ




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[tenpin3000]

Got it. Does it matter which direction I am rotating the engine? Because it seems the engine will only rotate counterclockwise

Anything that fits the hole, is long enough, and won't come apart and fall down inside. A straightened coat hanger will work too.

 

[Conundrum2006]

They may have topped off the oil after the fact to either fix it by miracle or fool people who look at. I'm confused when the oil could have come from when towed, unless the pan has a hole in it they usually don't leak. It's a PITA change the pan any way.

You motor may be toast but you are going about diagnosing it the right way.
If you can hear a rattling sound turning by hand then it had to have sounded like death running.



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[tenpin3000]

They may have topped off the oil after the fact to either fix it by miracle or fool people who look at. I'm confused when the oil could have come from when towed, unless the pan has a hole in it they usually don't leak. It's a PITA change the pan any way.

You motor may be toast but you are going about diagnosing it the right way.
If you can hear a rattling sound turning by hand then it had to have sounded like death running.



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Not for nothing but the car for the most part was in immaculate condition. It's not just the oil level, physically the car was in good shape. I'm not sure if it's a rattling sound, it just seems like there's like a loose nut inside or something, it's something small. Going counterclockwise is pretty smooth, clockwise it's jammed up. The original owner told me his mechanic said it was the timing belt, do you think that's a possibility? The only reason why I think it's not the timing belt was because it doesn't start at all. Let me know and thanks for your followup!

 

[CactusJacked]

Got it. Does it matter which direction I am rotating the engine? Because it seems the engine will only rotate counterclockwise

Doesn't matter, either direction you can rotate it would give you movement of the piston, as long as it's still connected to the crank.

 

[tenpin3000]

I think I may have to go to buy an extra long screwdriver or something, I tried with a long stick and with a coat hanger but i'm not getting movement in any of the cylinders

UPDATE: It seems that actually the engine rotates in both directions, but there is a "range of motion" after which it stops. While i was trying to rotate the engine counterclockwise to see if I could notice the stick moving, it actually got stuck as well, and strangely enough I tried going the opposite way and I was able to turn it a few times. Let me know if that means anything, otherwise I will be on my way shortly to buy an extra long screwdriver to redo the cylinder test.

Doesn't matter, either direction you can rotate it would give you movement of the piston, as long as it's still connected to the crank.

 

[CactusJacked]

Being that the spark plugs/holes are straight up and down, and the cylinders are a v configuration, there's a limit to how far down a stick or screwdriver will go before you hit the outer wall of the cylinder. It's not going to be able to follow the piston all the way down. You want to try and rotate the engine till each piston gets more near the top, so you're able to reach it. What would really come in handy is a video bore scope, you can borrow mine! Harbor Freight has them pretty cheap tho.

 

[tenpin3000]

Being that the spark plugs/holes are straight up and down, and the cylinders are a v configuration, there's a limit to how far down a stick or screwdriver will go before you hit the outer wall of the cylinder. It's not going to be able to follow the piston all the way down. You want to try and rotate the engine till each piston gets more near the top, so you're able to reach it. What would really come in handy is a video bore scope, you can borrow mine!

Is it normal for an engine to have a limited range of motion when turning in either direction? Or is that also indicative of an engine issue? Also, will a craftsman borescope work? I just want to make sure it's worth spending more money on this before I do, I'm still not sure if it's repairable or a clunker

 

[JasonJ]

Or just go buy a 1/4" wooden dowel at the hardware store.

Cant be the timing belt, there isn't one. If the timing CHAIN was bad, the valves and cams would not move. That could be where you can only turn it so far and then it stops comes from... valves sticking down, not moving in time with the engine, so when the pistons come up, one or more hit the valves and cant go any further.

If that is the case, removing the valve covers is the first step. Rotate engine by hand as much as it will allow, see if the rockers move up and down or not. If not, there ya go. Pull the front timing cover and see what's up. May be able to just replace the timing components, put the engine back in time alignment wise, and have a running engine.

Or it may be something else, or the pistons and valves could be damaged from contact, and in that case... rebuild or replace.

 

[tenpin3000]

Or just go buy a 1/4" wooden dowel at the hardware store.

Cant be the timing belt, there isn't one. If the timing CHAIN was bad, the valves and cams would not move. That could be where you can only turn it so far and then it stops comes from... valves sticking down, not moving in time with the engine, so when the pistons come up, one or more hit the valves and cant go any further.

If that is the case, removing the valve covers is the first step. Rotate engine by hand as much as it will allow, see if the rockers move up and down or not. If not, there ya go. Pull the front timing cover and see what's up. May be able to just replace the timing components, put the engine back in time alignment wise, and have a running engine.

Or it may be something else, or the pistons and valves could be damaged from contact, and in that case... rebuild or replace.

@JasonJ,

That's exactly what's happening, the crankshaft only rotates a certain amount in either direction. At first I thought it could only rotate counterclockwise, but then at a certain point it got stock, then I was able to rotate clockwise after that, and again it got stuck at a certain point. With that said:

1) What are the rockers?

2) Once I pull the front timing cover, will it be obvious if the timing chain is damaged or is there anything specifically I should be on the lookout for.

Thanks again guys, I feel we are getting close, I was somewhat relieved when I noticed the engine could rotate clockwise, hopefully this situation is salvageable.

 

[CactusJacked]

Is it normal for an engine to have a limited range of motion when turning in either direction? Or is that also indicative of an engine issue? Also, will a craftsman borescope work? I just want to make sure it's worth spending more money on this before I do, I'm still not sure if it's repairable or a clunker

Yeah, if there's a broken rod dangling, the piston is stuck in one position, and the crank will stop turning as the journal comes around and hits the rod. I bought the cheaper of the two bore scopes at Harbor Freight, and it works very well. I got it to check the cylinder wall integrity of my old Vette that I'm restoring. Scope shows they still have a nice cross-hatch pattern. It's a neat little toy (tool) to have, to help you spy other hard to see places.

 

[tenpin3000]

Yeah, if there's a broken rod dangling, the piston is stuck in one position, and the crank will stop turning as the journal comes around and hits the rod. I bought the cheaper of the two bore scopes at Harbor Freight, and it works very well. I got it to check the cylinder wall integrity of my old Vette that I'm restoring. Scope shows they still have a nice cross-hatch pattern. It's a neat little toy (tool) to have, to help you spy other hard to see places.

OK well it looks like I am going to go get a wooden dowel from Walmart and come back to test the cylinders. In your open should I check the timing chain first or go get the dowel first?

 

[ltd02]

I'd vote for pulling the cam covers next and see what happens when you rotate. See if the chains are "tight" and if the cams rotate and are still in time. Might have snapped a chain, busted a guide (jumped timing) or very bad tensioner. I'm thinking jumped timing and things that are not supposed to meet have met. At least it isn't seized. :gr_grin:

 

[CactusJacked]

Engine quits running all of a sudden, and now has limited range of motion. A broken rod or pistons hitting open valves (snapped timing chain etc) are the likely suspects. I would check whichever one is easier to you to access, then move to the other if the first one checks out.

 

[tenpin3000]

@CactusJacked

I was actually able to score a turkey probe from my neighbor, and at no point did any of the cylinders move. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, I even bent the probe so it could fit all the way down the hole and still no movement in 3 of the cylinders. If you had a video on how to properly execute this test that would help a lot, let me know thanks

Yeah, if there's a broken rod dangling, the piston is stuck in one position, and the crank will stop turning as the journal comes around and hits the rod. I bought the cheaper of the two bore scopes at Harbor Freight, and it works very well. I got it to check the cylinder wall integrity of my old Vette that I'm restoring. Scope shows they still have a nice cross-hatch pattern. It's a neat little toy (tool) to have, to help you spy other hard to see places.

 

[tenpin3000]

I'd vote for pulling the cam covers next and see what happens when you rotate. See if the chains are "tight" and if the cams rotate and are still in time. Might have snapped a chain, busted a guide (jumped timing) or very bad tensioner. I'm thinking jumped timing and things that are not supposed to meet have met. At least it isn't seized. :gr_grin:

OK going to pull the cam covers now, gonna try to find a guide on Youtube. And yes, at least it isn't seized at this point, hopefully I didn't further damage any pistons or valves with the rotations. And hopefully it isn't a broken connecting rod :gr_grin:

 

[CactusJacked]

That would be a pretty thin turkey baster, must be the size Michael Jackson used? :happy175:
Here is the digital scope from Harbor Freight, $80 with a 20% coupon = $64: Digital Inspection Camera
Whether it's a rod or timing chain problem, a good peek inside the cylinders could save you a lot of unnecessary engine tear down time. If a piston whacked a valve, it could have trashed that piston, that head, or even a broken off valve gouged/cracked the cylinder wall, which would mean the block is junk.

 

[tenpin3000]

That would be a pretty thin turkey baster, must be the size Michael Jackson used? :happy175:
Here is the digital scope from Harbor Freight, $80 with a 20% coupon = $64: Digital Inspection Camera
Whether it's a rod or timing chain problem, a good peek inside the cylinders could save you a lot of unnecessary engine tear down time. If a piston whacked a valve, it could have trashed that piston, that head, or even a broken off valve gouged/cracked the cylinder wall, which would mean the block is junk.

Need the back story on the Michael Jackson turkey baster story :icon_confused:. Looks like the digital scope is a worthwhile investment, gonna get it tomorrow, in the meanwhile going to take apart the front cover for kicks.

 

[boboborino]

@Logan Savage,

I've learned so much in the last 24 hours thanks to you guys, I'm confident if the engine turns this forum will help me to get the car running again.



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That's what working on your own vehicle will do! Good or Bad outcome on the motor, you'll be ten fold ahead with all the wrenching you are doing! Keep up the good work!

@CactusJacked

I was actually able to score a turkey probe from my neighbor,

Just make sure you give that a good spit wash before returning it! Don't worry, we won't tell them.
You've received great advice so far. My guess is also timing chain. Again, keep up the great work

Bert

 

[Logan Savage]

I still think you should slide under the engine with a good flashlight & look at both sides of the block above the oil pan as best you can . In the general vicinity of where the motor mounts bolt on . Oil running out , engine only turning a partial revolution , sounding more & more like a broken rod that knocked a hole in the block . It's easier to look than it is to turn wrenches .