Hydrogen generator in the KJ

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C.W.

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I've wondered about this too. What's the harm in trying, if you have the materials/money to do it? If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I know a certain amount of space is required under the hood, but have never actually measured or even looked to see if an hho generator would fit.

The hho cutting machines I've seen videos of appear to work. Nice, but I've seen no actual welding going on. In any case, an HHO generator in a kj just needs to do its job and nothing more. I really don't care if HHO cannot weld and only cut material. But I would care if someone has tried this in a KJ with effective results.
 

indieaz

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Sorrys guys, but there's no free energy. There is a reason hydrogen costs more than gasoline - the amount of energy required to make it. It looks like this video is probably just viral marketing (some friends of the guy who is selling it). Sure you can hook up a hydrogen feed to your fuel system and get better mpg, but you can't just make that hydrogen in real time (the electrolysis requires more energyt han what is leftover from your vehicles electrical system).

I think mythbusters even tried some of these kits on their show and got *worse* gas mileage than without them (tested on a dyno).
 

indieaz

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Now this is a fesaible solution, use solar panels to generate elctricity needed for hydrogen production and store ti in big tanks. You could then obviously power your car entirely on hydrogen.

This is why solar power really is the future...you just need a good storage medium (like hydrogen).
 

chirokj

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and costly....mythbusters tried running their car on hydrogen alone which is difficult.....but to suplement gasoline with hydrogen is a different story
 
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VTNomad

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BS

It's complete and total BS and you'll blow up your engine.
HHO is a joke, you use energy to separate hydrogen and oxygen, only to recombine them to produce energy, and there's always some loss. You're using your alternator to convert electric energy to thermal energy. Too bad the alternator is driven by the engine! Come on people this is high school chemistry and physics.

I have no idea what type of MPG display that was, but I doubt it could read instant mpg's with the flip of a switch. How does the computer measure MPG? The correct way to do it would be to measure gallons used over a known distance. Instantaneous would be different, the computer would have to have some formula to known mpg's at a given torque, speed, or engine rpm, or better yet a combination. The addition of hydrogen would skew the formula, making it look like it added mpg's. I'll bet money the vehicle didn't go 1 mile more on a tank of gas with the hydrogen.


Automotive manufacturers have invested millions into improve gas mileage, if it were this easy, don't you think it would be standard equipment required by law?

Hydrogen is the hottest burning gas, someone is going to melt their engine.

Even if this did work, and was used widely, water vapor (from combustion of hydrogen 2H + O = H2O(g) + heat)is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. So what is this going to solve?
 

JeepJeepster

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I have no idea what type of MPG display that was, but I doubt it could read instant mpg's with the flip of a switch. How does the computer measure MPG? The correct way to do it would be to measure gallons used over a known distance. Instantaneous would be different, the computer would have to have some formula to known mpg's at a given torque, speed, or engine rpm, or better yet a combination. The addition of hydrogen would skew the formula, making it look like it added mpg's. I'll bet money the vehicle didn't go 1 mile more on a tank of gas with the hydrogen.

That was called a scan gauge 2. I have one and it will tell you the average mpg, instant mpg, engine load, engine temp, open closed loop, TP, rpms, speed, map, ign, just about everything you need to know and then some. :)

You must be registered for see images attach
 

indieaz

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I have no idea what type of MPG display that was, but I doubt it could read instant mpg's with the flip of a switch. How does the computer measure MPG?

Most computers do this by taking the injector size (stored in a table in the
ECU), the duty cycle of the injectors over some short period of time (the last couple of seconds) and speed. Pretty basic.

My corvette computer generally underestimates my mileage by about 5-10% overall, but it's still a very accurate way of estimating mileage and giving the user feedback on how their driving is impacting mileage.
 

BillyBones

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I know it was sort of mentioned, but there is an episode of mythbusters that shows different types of attempts to use hydrogen fuel and none of them worked.

If it was that easy to setup cheap free power to your vehicle, i think it would be clear since lots of people would be using it.
 

VTNomad

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The nail in the HHO coffin.

So I got bored, I have insomnia, so I did a little homework on HHO.

The HHO theory:
An electric current is used to break the chemical bonds in water to separate the hydrogen and oxygen (electrolysis). That hydrogen is then combusted and the additional energy of the combustion of hydrogen is added to the energy from the combustion of gasoline, increasing your MPG's. Here's where I found some variation in the HHO theory. Assumption 1: The alternator in your vehicle produces more electricity than you need so you can use this extra free electric energy for electrolysis. If it didn't, your vehicle would stall every time you turned on another electrical component; OR Assumption 2: The amount of electric energy required for electrolysis is far less the amount of chemical energy obtained from the combustion of hydrogen. Or these assumptions are both used. The assumption that the oxygen needed for combustion is also produced with electrolysis, and that no outside oxygen is need. This means that this is a closed system, more on this later.

Scientific Law: The law of conservation of energy: Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; it can only be changed from one form to another.

An internal combustion engine converts the chemical energy stored in gasoline to mechanical energy. In the presence of oxygen, a spark is used for ignition. Ignition causes the gas to expand (mechanically), forcing the pistons down, turning the crankshaft, which eventually turns the wheels. (This reaction is quick, and the gases produced are ejected before they have completely expanded. So the theory that HHO adds more gas, or more heat making the gases expand more, or more rapidly, is false). This conversion of chemical energy to mechanical energy also produces heat, and light energy, which your engine does not use. So the mechanical component is the only useful component, and the heat and light produced are wasted. Only 30% of the chemical energy in gasoline is actually converted to useful mechanical energy. The other 70%, since it cannot be destroyed, is converted to useless heat and light.

This mechanical energy in turn, is used to spin an alternator, creating an electric field, essentially converting mechanical energy to electrical energy. There are losses here as well. Slipping and/or stretching of the belt, friction of the bearings, and wind resistance (drag) of the spinning components. The alternator efficiency varies by depending on the alternator, but usually has an efficiency of 45-70%.

Here's where the HHO assumptions come in.

Assumption 1: The alternator produces more electricity than is needed. For a second, let's assume this is true. If it is, and energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed, where does it go when it isn't used? Your alternator would be sending out lightning bolts if this were the case, or producing massive amounts of heat. Look at how much heat is produced by gasoline, which has an energy efficiency of 30%. If the were the case with an assumed 70% (best case scenario) efficient alternator, think of the amount of heat that would be produced when this "unused energy" isn't being put to use.

So your alternator doesn't produce extra energy. Where does the additional energy come from when you turn on extra electrical accessories (hint: it's not the battery, your battery is not used as a source of electricity while the vehicle is running. The battery stores electricity, chemically, for use when the alternator is not spinning.) The alternator gets its extra energy from the mechanical energy of the engine, robbing your engine of more efficiency.

Assumption 2: The amount of energy needed to break the chemical bonds is less than the amount of energy produced from the combustion of hydrogen. Remember, this is a chemically closed system with HHO, all the needed oxygen is provided by electrolysis. The only thing entering the system is the electricity. (If it wasn't, this would rob oxygen needed for the combustion of gasoline, which would cause less gasoline to burn causing your engine to run 'rich' and thus lowering efficiency). So you're breaking the chemical bonds of water, only to reform them. Remember, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. What exactly does this do? Essentially it converts electric energy from the alternator, into heat, which we already stated was USELESS in a mechanical engine!

Conclusions: An HHO system decreases the efficiency of your engine by using mechanic energy, which is converted by the alternator into electric energy, to produce useless heat. So why do people think HHO improves fuel efficiency? Because their Scanguage tells them it does. Instantaneous miles per gallon are calculated using information from the computer based on the amount of gasoline injected and the speed (and therefore distance travelled speed = distance/time; you can't have speed without time) of the previous two seconds. So the number you are seeing is the MPG's two seconds ago. Measuring mpg's this way is horribly inaccurate, because the fuel injectors aren't very accurate. So I assume the extra heat generated has some effect on the way the computer measures volume of fuel being released by the injectors.

Why is this a topic for discussion? Well, as with most myths, its based on ideas that sound like science (pseudoscience). Your average person isn't a scientist and doesn't think like one, but that doesn't make them stupid, they just lack an understanding of scientific principle. (I'm trying not to insult anyone.) Being smart, and being intelligent are two totally different things. Being smart is defined as having a ready mental capability (i.e. the ability to regurgitate information). Being intelligent is defined as having the capacity to learn, to reason and to understand facts and meanings.
 

VTNomad

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Mythbusters & hydrogen

I know it was sort of mentioned, but there is an episode of mythbusters that shows different types of attempts to use hydrogen fuel and none of them worked.

If it was that easy to setup cheap free power to your vehicle, i think it would be clear since lots of people would be using it.

I love the show, but it's not scientific. Science looks for repeatability. Science trys to explain things so that anyone, anywhere, can repeat an experiment under the same conditions. Mythbusters is looking for the one exception than can prove a myth false. And one false is good enough for Mythbusters, but science requires many true's.

Most of the stuff on the show is based on good science, sometimes a little bad science sneaks in.

Hydrogen isn't going to be useful as a fuel for an internal combustion engine. The real advantage of hydrogen is when it is used in a fuel cell. A fuel cell directly converts chemical energy to electric energy (instead of heat (thermal energy), or mechanic energy). This is the opposite of electrolysis, using electricity to spearate hydrogen and oxygen, a fuel cell combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity (for every action the is an equal and opposite reaction). That process is around 80% efficient as opposed to the 30% efficiency of gasoline.
 
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jnaut

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What VTNomad says. Making hydrogen is not, by itself and invalid concept. What you need to create the hydrogen is a free source of power that's producing that power all the time. Solar is one of those sources. If you have photovoltaic cells and sun is shinging on them, you have a power source which can be harnessed to produce hydrogen. Even if the process to produce said hydrogen is "lossy" (which it is), you're not putting anything into the system (so to speak) to produce the hydrogen.

So, if you use hydrogen to power some aspects of your home, your solar panels can be producing hydrogen while you're at work and your home electricity usage should be very low.

How much hydrogen you can produce will be the key. To wit:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5CNK/is_2006_August_10/ai_n24991640
 

indieaz

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^ as long as you have some storage medium solar is great. I think Hydrogen or possibly a compressed air system (underground storage likely) is a good way to go. I know it is lossy (especially the compressed air route), but in places like the southwest where 95% of our days are sunny (and most of the cloudy days are only partly cloudy) there is no shortage of available energy...we just need a place to put it. I imagine the system would be far more effective in Arizona than it is in new york.
 

jnaut

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^ as long as you have some storage medium solar is great. I think Hydrogen or possibly a compressed air system (underground storage likely) is a good way to go. I know it is lossy (especially the compressed air route), but in places like the southwest where 95% of our days are sunny (and most of the cloudy days are only partly cloudy) there is no shortage of available energy...we just need a place to put it. I imagine the system would be far more effective in Arizona than it is in new york.


Yes, you must be able to store the hydrogen. See that article I linked above. Guy has a half dozen low pressure tanks on his property which stores the hydrogen. I've had a few conversations with this guy and he sent me some info on his setup. While I can't personally verify everything said, supposedly, he's entirely off the grid. So he must get enough hydrogen output from his photovoltaic cells during low-usage periods to cover him during high-usage periods. Interesting stuff.
 

VTNomad

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A solar powered hydrogenerator is a good option for producing hydrogen gas at low costs. And it creates the problem of where to store the highly explosive hydrogen gas. Metal hydrides are the storage solution. Hydrogen is stored in solid form and released when a little heat is applied. This gets rid of the bulky, not to mention EXPLOSIVE, compressed gas tanks.

But this discussion is about HHO and adding it to a standard internal combustion engine for increased efficiency. Even if you could produce HHO with a solar powered generator, it still won't add power or improve the efficiency of your vehicle becuase all it produces is heat.
 
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jnaut

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But this discussion is about HHO and adding it to a standard internal combustion engine for increased efficiency. Even if you could produce HHO with a solar powered generator, it still won't add power or improve the efficiency of your vehicle becuase all it produces is heat.


Word. I have it on good authority that you can boost your Horse Power by putting a small PC processor fan in front of your air intake.

http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1i/bl769i.htm
 

indieaz

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But this discussion is about HHO and adding it to a standard internal combustion engine for increased efficiency. Even if you could produce HHO with a solar powered generator, it still won't add power or improve the efficiency of your vehicle becuase all it produces is heat.

I'm confused, there are vehicles that run on hydrogen gas.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/light_duty/hicev/index.html

Am I missing something when you say you can't power an ICE on hydrogen? I believe they have buses in Phoenix running on Hydrogen. If nothing else, wouldn't adding some hydrogen into the intake supplant some of the gasoline effectively making the vehicle require less gasoline? I know it would take some modification to the fuel tables, but I don't see why it *can't* work.
 
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