Just Lost Engine get hot and has electrical problems

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Soules3

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Got my Liberty out of the mechanic shop a few weeks ago and have had numerous problems. I will be driving down the road and throw a po335 (crankshaft position senor) and it will sometimes be combined with a Po122 (throttle position sensor). I have decided that it only does it when it gets hot. I hook up a reader to it and the temp said it was 228. even though the guage on the dash showed straight in the middle. I am starting to wonder if it has the right antifreeze mix in it. why would my 2 readings be different from each other. now it randomly dies when it get hot. and sure enough its hot as hell in that engin compartment. Everything is way to hot to touch. I donno where to start.

I have replaced the TPM, Crankshaft, & Camshaft position sensors.
 

LibertyTC

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What year is your Jeep? When was the last time you installed new spark plugs? Use only NGK ZFR6F-11G gap at .040 inch. Plugs should be changed out every 30k.
Did any water get on top of coil packs?
Only dies when it gets hot: Jeep does strange stuff if you have wiring issues or charging system incl battery is not up to speed.
Alternator output volts? Battery volts in the AM? (not running) Best to get battery load tested.
When it comes to sensors, would always recommend Mopar vs after market, did you buy Mopar sensors?
The dash temp gauge is not necessarily accurate. The OBDII reading will be accurate.
If you even think that there is anything other that Hoat or Zerex G-05 in the coolant system, it's time for a flush !
Good time to do hoses & Mopar thermostat as well.
Do you have only the electrical fan or the viscous fan /clutch as well?
At 228F is the electrical fan spinning at high speed and then cools off/temps drop?
By engaging any A/C mode (re circulation is best) the electrical fan should be on & running.
If it stalls because your idle is dropping to low when hot, replace the IAC (intake air control)
as it controls the idle.
 

Soules3

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No water in the coil packs, only 1k miles on new motor, plugs, coils, battery volts=13.6 alternator=13.8. not sure what they put in for antifreeze. Idk if the fan is kicking into high like it should. I think I would be able to tell. It is on, but I don't think it's high. The sensors are not mopar but replaced twice.
 

LibertyTC

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New Engine? Then electrical oh.. what year is your jeep -and what year is the new motor?
Hope they can get things sorted out and get them to check all the ground locations..

HOAT COOLANT OR ZEREX G-05 ONLY shops can add the wrong stuff easily they have no clue-- refer to owners manuals!
 

Soules3

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Jeep is 2004. Don't know on the motor, it was a remanufactured motor. Do you know where I can find a 2004 service manual? I looked through this forum and can find 03 and 05, but no 04. Yeah I guess I'll change out the coolant, thermostats and fan relays. To try and get the heat issue under control. Then move on to the electrical. I did find another complete wiring harness on eBay and picked it up.
 

LibertyTC

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Unfortunately the 2004 FSM pdf is unavailable online. The 2003 should be close enough.
The hard cover books (4 in set) for an 04 are available from ebay.
 

Ksat

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228 F is a normal operating temperature and is nothing to be concerned about. I would take a look at the live data PIDs on your scanner and look to see if anything is amiss. Compare readings before and after the engine cuts out. I would also test the crank sensor input/output, especially once the engine stalls. A scope is best to use for that, but a DMM can give you some info as well.
 

tommudd

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228 normal operating temp ??
That is the high end , going into the temp range that causes issues
 

Ksat

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228 would be on the high end of a normal operating temp, if you want to get picky about it. If the guy is still worried, he can do a full flush and change the t-stat to one that opens at a lower temp (possibly causing worse MPG).

Regardless, 228 should not cause the engine to stall out. He probably has a heat soak problem with one of the sensors.
 

tommudd

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228 would be on the high end of a normal operating temp, if you want to get picky about it. If the guy is still worried, he can do a full flush and change the t-stat to one that opens at a lower temp (possibly causing worse MPG).

Regardless, 228 should not cause the engine to stall out. He probably has a heat soak problem with one of the sensors.
Picky LOL
Yes I am , on all of mine very picky
That is why they are still on the road
 

mduclow

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I agree, 228 is higher than I like to see anytime as well. Put the clutch fan on it if you do not have it. Without the clutch fan the system doesn't turn on any fans until 219 (low speed) and then 229 (I think, high speed). So, naturally the engine wants to run right up to 220 all the time, especially when it is not getting airflow from moving (sitting in traffic, idling).

Trust me on this, put the clutch fan on (if you don't have it), then see if you still have (overheating/running hot) concerns, you won't.

Additionally, you can remove the gasket that seals the back of the hood when closed, that will let some air (heat) out from under the hood. This alone drops my temps by 6-8 degrees, coolant temp I mean. So it must be cooler under hood.

Getting it cooler under hood may be just what she wants.
 

David13

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I agree, 228 is higher than I like to see anytime as well. Put the clutch fan on it if you do not have it. Without the clutch fan the system doesn't turn on any fans until 219 (low speed) and then 229 (I think, high speed). So, naturally the engine wants to run right up to 220 all the time, especially when it is not getting airflow from moving (sitting in traffic, idling).

Trust me on this, put the clutch fan on (if you don't have it), then see if you still have (overheating/running hot) concerns, you won't.

Additionally, you can remove the gasket that seals the back of the hood when closed, that will let some air (heat) out from under the hood. This alone drops my temps by 6-8 degrees, coolant temp I mean. So it must be cooler under hood.

Getting it cooler under hood may be just what she wants.

Seems to me, you should only need the clutch and fan (mechanical) if you are towing. If it's running hot, wouldn't it be better to find the issue and fix it? Like if the water pump is not working, fix that? Or thermostat is off, too high, or out? Etc?
dc
 

mduclow

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Seems to me, you should only need the clutch and fan (mechanical) if you are towing. If it's running hot, wouldn't it be better to find the issue and fix it? Like if the water pump is not working, fix that? Or thermostat is off, too high, or out? Etc?
dc
I think you're missing what I think is the most important part, without the clutch fan there is NO FAN COOLING the system until she gets up to 220 degrees. There is NO active cooling until she gets to 220.

Anytime she is not moving she is climbing the temps. If you're fine with the engine always wanting to run up to 220 without any active cooling, ok, but I do not like that at all. These engines don't like to be overheated, and if it is running up to 220 without any cooling going on, then it is an easy reach to get over 230 pretty quickly.

I prefer the active cooling with the clutch fan. Sitting in traffic, no problem. Climbing mountains slowly in the summer, no problem. Without the clutch fan, all of that will have the vehicle wanting to overheat all the time. And it would overheat in some of those situations.

This is just my opinion, I believe in "too much" brakes and cooling.

EDIT: FTR, I didn't make this clear, but hot under hood just might cause sensor, injector, coil, etc... issues. Cooling it down under hood might be a good start. This is why I suggest the clutch fan and removing the gasket, both will noticeably reduce under hood temps.
 
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mduclow

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I want to give a detailed explanation of why I think any KJ with the HD shroud, and no clutch fan, is a ticking time bomb on these engines and transmissions.

I hope this helps anyone better understand our cooling system designs.

First, let's address what I am talking about. The KJ's were available with two cooling options, Standard cooling and HD.

Standard is just an electric fan with a shroud. The shroud is small and only protrudes about 4-6 inches off the radiator (I think). The fan is "sealed" in the shroud, meaning the gaps are minimal and the fan is efficient (let's not argue that) at drawing air through the radiator. I don't know the turn on temps.

HD cooling uses a much larger fan shroud, protruding all the way to the snouts of the A/C compressor and the alternator. This cooling is designed around the clutch fan and uses an electric fan as secondary cooling. My understanding is all 2004's came with the HD shroud, not sure about other years.

Let's talk a bit more about the HD cooling as the standard cooling is extremely simple and straightforward, and there seems to be some differing opinions about this HD cooling design. This is my opinion.

If you have the HD shroud and no clutch fan, take a look in the shroud. You will see an electric fan in there. What you should also notice is the rather large gap around the fan on the upper and right side. That gap significantly reduces the efficiency of that fan in that shroud. It will struggle to pull good air through the radiator with that gap alone. Especially when you consider pulling air through a radiator, A/C condenser and even a trans cooler. The standard cooling fan is much better "sealed" in it's shroud because it is the primary, and only, cooling fan.

Now, imagine the clutch fan is installed, it "seals" in the shroud with less than an inch gap around it. Now that electric fan can actually provide some help to the clutch fan because it is increasing airflow in an already "sealed" shroud. Now we are actually pulling good air through the radiator.

Without the clutch fan, that electric fan in that shroud is not efficient (it's just ok at best). Add to that it waits until the engine has risen to 219 degrees before it even turns the low speed on, it's no wonder they like to run hot a lot of the time like that. This HD shroud should always have the clutch fan installed, it's the primary cooling fan, the electric fan is secondary cooling to assist the clutch fan in high load/heat situations.

The shrouds are designed around the fan that seals the gaps best in it. The electric fan does not properly seal by itself in the HD shroud, therefore it is not the primary fan, which is why it doesn't turn on the low speed until 219. Especially when considering how well the clutch fan seals in the HD shroud. The clutch fan doesn't really need the electric in front of it, but in towing it would be helpful to have that electric fan provide more airflow in high load/heat situations, not just for the engine, but the trans cooler as well. Think low speed hill climb towing, pulling away from a light uphill.

And let's not forget the factory water temp gauge will only move off the half way mark when it it climbing over 228 (I think that's the number). Without the clutch fan, she can run up to 225 all day long and that gauge will read half the whole time, you'll never know what's going on unless you notice the fan coming on and know that means she hit 219.

I, honestly, for the life of me, cannot understand why these vehicles were sent out of the factory with the HD shroud and no clutch fan.

This is a recipe for hot running engines and transmissions. Remember, no active cooling across the trans cooler either without the clutch fan. And it is probably not very good airflow at all across the trans cooler with the electric fan on in that shroud.

So, anytime your KJ with the HD shroud and no clutch fan is sitting idling, climbing at low speeds, or any low-to-no airflow situation, she is wanting to overheat and your gauge is not letting you know until she is already hot.

Imagine it sitting in 90 degree heat without the A/C on in traffic, every time you hear the electric fan turn on she hit 219+, and if the gauge has started moving up she is probably already over 230.

All kinds of electrical bugs can arise from constant high under hood temperatures, especially after a decade or more of it.

I see this as a ticking time bomb on an engine that doesn't like being overheated or run hot and a transmission that also doesn't like being overheated or even run hot.

Why, knowingly, allow our KJ's to run like that? I really like this Liberty, am looking forward to driving it until it falls of a mountain.

I live at 6500' in the Rockies, I have replaced 2 motors and a trans in 18 months as a direct result of cooling issues. I finally realized (that dang electric fan in there tricked my brain, and everyone else's, for a while) the importance of the clutch fan in the HD shroud, even going so far as to remove the electric fan in the shroud (better airflow without it). The computer doesn't care, no code, and the motor has never gone over 204 since putting the clutch fan on. It'll never hit 219 with my 3 row aluminum radiator and the clutch fan.

As long as my motor spins 1500 rpm it's enough airflow to keep it cool, even running up steep mountain inclines in 70 degree heat, 8 miles of winding dirt road trail, 10-25mph from 7000' to 9500', never hit 205, yeah, clutch fan!
 
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JeepJeepster

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TJKJ was always very adamant that the clutch driven fan didnt engage till 230F. This was with the factory HD cooling, no idea where he got that info from.

I added the HD cooling after having my 04 for well over 10 years and didnt notice the transmission running any cooler at all. I had a trans temp gauge for many years before adding the HD cooling and I saw the same temps before and after. IMHO, this would mean the trans cooler is undersized for HD stuff. What made a difference in trans temps was adding the PML trans pan. Ive not driven the Jeep in the dead of winter yet, but over the weekend it was 40F and after driving 1.5hrs, the trans was at 125F.

My engine never got above 217F with the electric fan but I agree, I dont like my engine constantly going from 195F to 217F repeatedly. The fan ALWAYS runs on low with the A/C on, so the engine should not be getting up to 217F with the A/C on (mine never did).

My engine now stays below 204F no matter what Im doing. Ive towed a 3500lb camper up a 5 mile 5% grade in 90F+ heat and it stayed right at 204F. Trans was under 180F from what I remember.

Something Ive noticed but have not been able to find in wording, the electric fan will kick on when the transmission gets above a certain temp. It seems to be ~180F, but I cannot verify that. This is the case on my 04, cant speak for other years.

The biggest issue I have with just having an electric fan is, and you said it, the 3.7 does not like being overheated... I like having a backup fan. Couldnt careless about mpg, so having both fans is the best of both worlds.
 

mduclow

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As to the clutch on a clutch fan, let me explain how they work.

The clutch is a lot like a torque converter if you understand those, fluid spinning to cause engagement. Actually, more like a harmonic balancer, viscous fluid.

Dead cold it should engage about 25%, so if the engine spins 1000 rpm the fan should be spinning about 250 rpm.

As the engine heats up it heats up a bimetal spring on the front of the clutch, this rotates as a result of heating up and either opens or closes (I don't remember) a valve which increases the engagement based on how much it opened or closed the valve. This will give you a varying degree of more engagement up to about 75%. I believe the increasing engagement starts at about 150-175 degrees, I'm not sure.

Full engagement, about 75% on an HD clutch, comes at about 230 degrees of coolant temp. Yes, it is based on coolant temp in the spec sheets, so your under hood temps in relation will vary it.

The percentage of engagement multiplied by the engine rpm will give you fan speed.

The idea is that you have minimal drag (low engagement) on the engine from the mechanical fan when it is cold and doesn't need the cooling. As the engine warms up and needs more cooling, the clutch engages more and provides more and more fan speed to draw more airflow.

C'mon, someone say it, "Brilliant!!"
 
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lfhoward

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You’re good. In my opinion at least. That was interesting. I have the HD fan on mine and I tow a 3000 lb trailer so it is very relevant to me.
 

Ksat

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My posts here are given to hopefully assist OP in their troubles.

I wasn't just dumping it here as a way to get that info out.

Your thoroughness is appreciated, if anything.

I didn't know that about the bi-metal spring. I never gave the function of it much thought, but assumed it worked like a viscous coupling or something.

Good to know the truth about it, Thanks.
 

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