KJ or KK?

[Benny_S]

Ok, given that I'm posting on the KK forum, my guess is there will be a strong KK following. So, as I mentioned in my intro, I don't own a Liberty yet. It's the strongest contender in my new vehicle search, and I'm trying to figure out which are preferred and why. Because I'm partial to a manual trans, my search for a KK would be limited to the 08s. Not a huge selection!

Whether talking KJ or KK, manual tran seem fairly uncommon. My current Zuki Grand Vitara only has a 2.5L, so going auto is just not an option with my tire size. I'm wondering if maybe going manual isn't as important with the 3.7L?

How are the Liberty auto trannies for reliability/longevity?

Are there any reasons I definitely don't want a manual Liberty??

What are people's feelings about the general abilities, benefits, drawbacks of the KJ and KK?

Although I do like the look of the lifted KJ (especially the straight hood/grill renegades), IMO the KK does look more modern. There is some chance that my daughters will think the KK is cooler looking, and that is worth something as much as I'm sheepish to admit it, lol.

In either case I'd probably want to lift the rig enough to accommodate some tire up to 32", although I prob don't have the budget to do gears and would love to keep the gas mileage as good as it can be. Where would that leave me on max tire size? Could I still run 31s and be ok with the stock gears? If so, what kind of lift height does it take to accommodate 31s on the KK?

I've done lots of reading and I have to admit, I'm still unclear on what the Frankenlift is, what the components of the Tom mud econo lift are (the link is broken and can't find anything on JBA now). All the threads on these topics were fairly old; are there new ways of getting the same lift that are preferable?

I'm going to cross-post this to the KJ site too to capture the broadest audience and hopefully responses

 

[Big Al]

Just picked up a 2003 Renagade for dirt cheap.
Craigslist has these years going at $500 to $2999 right now.
If you get an older one like this, get ready to spend some time and money on it.

 

[LibertyTC]

Benny, We can only have 1 post regarding your questions running- for WAY less duplication & confusion.
I removed the KJ post, so carry on in this thread please.
Note this may get moved into the KJ section later...lets see what happens..

 

[Billwill]

I love my 2002 Export 5 speed Manual CRD KJ.

It has a neat turning circle and has been pretty reliable but as these KJs get older more harness wiring problems are showing up everywhere!

I like the manual box but as I get older I keep thinking that an auto box would be better

The KK has much more interior space and has the spare wheel out of the way under the rear.. KJs have the fuel tank in that area so I believe that "tow-bars" were issued as a safety measure for Gassers in case of being rear-ended...I have not seen these being fitted here in South Africa but in any case I ordered my KJ from the factory fitted with a Mopar tow-bar.

Also as stated...the rear seats on the KJ not folding flat is a bit of a pain!

 

[lfhoward]

As a KK owner I’ll try to outline the differences and what I see as pros and cons. I own an 08 with an automatic transmission.

Although there are many similarities here are a few differences:
- KK is longer with more spacious interior and cargo room
- KK spare tire is under the rear instead of on the tailgate
- KK (and 07 KJ) are drive by wire throttle, not a traditional cable
- KK doesn’t have window regulator issues like the KJ
- KK sky slider looks cool but has been unreliable. Don’t get one. They don’t make the parts to fix it anymore.
- KK has traction control, antilock brakes, etc. all standard. Some would consider this a pro, others a con.
- KK gas tank is in the middle of the Jeep; KJ is behind the rear axle, which has led to a recall where a free trailer hitch was mounted to protect it in rear end collisions.
- KK and KJ front suspensions are similar, but KJ rear has a single boomerang shaped rear upper control arm whereas KK has 2 upper control arms and a track bar. Less issues with KK rear ends wearing out.
- KK has the notorious TIPM underhood fuse box which is expensive to replace and tends to fail. Mine has been fine.
- KK has a reinforced front differential that can run JK Dana 30 gears. KJ has a “Dana 30a” aluminum front diff that runs very specific gears and is not as strong.
- KK only had a manual transmission in 08 as you said. But it’s a 6 speed.
- KK and KJ automatic transmissions are 4 speed. But they are all pretty bullet proof. Gas mileage will suck but they are reliable. KJ gets a little better mileage because it’s a lighter vehicle.
- Automatic ****** KK’s can have a higher Tow rating than the manuals for some reason. With an automatic and the tow package (basically an auxiliary mechanical fan), the Liberty can tow 5000 lbs. (2000 lbs without).
- KK transfer case has an electronic switch to go in and out of 4wd. The KJ is a manual lever. Some people have had issues with the electronic system. Mine has been fine.
- No matter which Liberty model you go with, an OME suspension (OME or Bilstein shocks and OME springs) will improve the ride and performance over the stock suspension, so so much. The newest 08 you can get is already 12 years old and the suspension sagged years ago. Even more so with a KJ.
- With an OME suspension you can run 31’s. However it will suck some power and mpg away. The auto ****** came with 3.73 gearing, but the manual KK came with 3.23 gearing. 4.10’s would get you back your power, mpg, and performance while running 31’s.
- Higher lifts by JBA are no longer made, although occasionally they show up on the forums used for sale.
- JBA upper control arms are a great upgrade but not technically needed at 2.5 inches of lift or less.

This is what I can brainstorm at the moment. I’ll come back and edit this list if I think of other important differences.

 

[tommudd]

If you want to run 32s you need a bigger budget
First you need 3.5-4 inches of lift which is hard to do anymore since we do not have the JBA coilover lift
Next, yes you will lose power, gas mileage, and transmission runs hotter without regearing
One of mine I run 265-70-16s ( 31s) and 4.10 gearing which is almost perfect all around
one of my other ones with 4.10s and 32 lacks some in power and pulling trailers etc

For me personally I love the 01-05 KJs , much better looking, better mileage, better turning radius and just look better
After 05 they started going down hill with more electronic crap to contend with daily and even when lifting,window regulaters going bad , and the whole KJ flat hooded Renegades is butt ugly.

While manuals are cool in one way , give me an automatic

 

[Benny_S]

Wow folks, thanks so much for the info so far. There's a lot there to digest.

So what's about the most lift you can squeek out of these units without the JBA coilovers? Is it done with the OME coils alone?

I totally believe I'm being provided reliable info, but crud, it's hard to believe that a 3.7L can't easily turn 31s. My Zuki's 2.5L (manual) pushes 30s without any problems. I tow tent trailers in mountainous terrain and have towed boats over a couple thousand pounds (although that sucked). My old 82 Toyota with a 2200cc 4 ****** turned 31s like they were nothing!

There's a lot I love about Canada, but our dollar is not among those things. Having gears done sounds expensive, and although I'm mostly mechanically proficient, I've heard doing gears is a ****** job (something about it being difficult to shim the diff properly?).

Does the spare tire on the KK affect clearance and/or departure angles?

Likes:
-KK back seats folding flat
-Guaranteed tow hitch receivers on KJ (even if it was a cheesy way to fix the rear tank issue)
-Window actuators that work on KK (Tom, are you saying the actuators on the 2005 and older are OK?)
-KJ T-case shifter
-Tightest turning radius (KJ?)
-KK body style best, then flat hood/grill KJ (sorry Tom ), then the regular KJ, although I really like them all

Dislikes:
-KK Manual gearing at 3.23. Anyone know what gearing the manual KJs had? Was it also 3.23??
-KK crap sunroofs
-Having crappy mileage out of a 3.7L and yet not enough juice to roll 31s
-the prospect of re-gearing in pretty much any case
-KK Fuse box failures

Unsure?
-Throttle types
-Electronic crap to fail like traction control, ABS, etc. I have the ABS disabled on my Zuki (although is gonna make it hard to sell with 2 ABS lights and an airbag light on)

Off to mull it all over.

Appreciatively,
Ben

 

[Benny_S]

I love my 2002 Export 5 speed Manual CRD KJ.

You know, I can't understand how the North American CRDs were all auto trans?? Am I the only guy in N. America that wants to control when and how his ****** shifts??

I've been tossing around the idea of the CRDs. How has yours been for expensive issues?

 

[lfhoward]

I have 31’s on my KK and haven’t regeared. It works. It’s passable. It just isn’t as good as it could be. If a regear wasn’t so darn expensive I would have already done it. My aux cooling fan helps keep the ****** temp down, so I’m not causing any catastrophic wear and tear. Been this way for 100,000 miles now.

 

[lfhoward]

As to the turning radius thing... I don’t know that the KJ is much tighter than the KK. I can parallel park in the tiniest of parking spots in Philadelphia with my KK. I can also do a full U-turn in the street without having to back up. And it’s fantastic on the trail too. I wouldn’t call the KK turning radius a limitation at all.

 

[Billwill]

As to the turning radius thing... I don’t know that the KJ is much tighter than the KK. I can parallel park in the tiniest of parking spots in Philadelphia with my KK. I can also do a full U-turn in the street without having to back up. And it’s fantastic on the trail too. I wouldn’t call the KK turning radius a limitation at all.

OK I was not aware of that....I was just passing on comments I have seen on other sites and to me it would seem that a larger Jeep would have a larger turning circle....my bad!

I have only been to America once...a one week work visit with a workmate to break down a large computer just south of Philadelphia to be shipped elsewhere. We did a crash course tour in Washington DC and then drove up the coast to that small town.
On a Sunday morning before leaving for SA we drove into Philly for a few hours....you can never judge a city by making one short visit but it looked very much like the film "Philadelphia" with Tom Hanks and soundtrack by "The Boss".

First impressions of America....where are all the beautiful people we see in the movies and TV and why does everyone drive like maniacs?

And the Smithsonian is a place I could spend a week in easily! I would love to spend more time in the USA...preferably the mountains and rivers!

 

[Billwill]

You know, I can't understand how the North American CRDs were all auto trans?? Am I the only guy in N. America that wants to control when and how his ****** shifts??

I've been tossing around the idea of the CRDs. How has yours been for expensive issues?

My 2002 Export CRD 2.5 L Sport has a fixed-vane turbo so has no EGR issues and has proved very reliable...ordered it from the factory with Mopar roof rack, four Mopar rubber mud-flaps and Mopar tow-hitch.

Unfortunately this early model came out without ABS and without Disk brakes at the rear....items I would have liked to have!

Replaced clutch twice and had the Dealers....pretty useless bunch here...replace the rubber timing belt about every 6 years as well as the Serpentine belt.

Replaced CAC hoses when one blew on the open road, change fluids myself.

The 11 volt Glow-plugs have not been touched...more reliable I think than the 5v/12v glow plugs on the later models!

My ex partner crashed the Jeep into a tree that jumped in front of her and that caused lots of wiring problems to come up over the years which I sorted out myself!

I personally would not purchase a used KJ now...getting too old and parts a bit difficult to get hold of...we do not have easy access to non-Mopar parts suppliers here in SA!

Best vehicle I have ever owned!

 

[lfhoward]

Can you get a CRD KK there in SA? That would be amazing! Wish we had those here in the States.

The thing you said about Philly drivers is true!!!!! And Philly drivers think New Jersey drivers drive like maniacs.

 

[Billwill]

Can you get a CRD KK there in SA? That would be amazing! Wish we had those here in the States.

The thing you said about Philly drivers is true!!!!! And Philly drivers think New Jersey drivers drive like maniacs.

I am not sure if the KK came out as a CRD here.....actually not too many KKs to be seen around here as apposed to KJs which were fairly common but now slowly dying out.