Need new front springs...

[ozone000]

From what I've read here it's 19.5 in the back and 19 in the front. Supposedly it's more accurate going from the ground to the frame but I haven't seen what those numbers are supposed to be.

1. You don't have to find the perfect center. Find the upper edge of the wheel and measure to that. Then measure the diameter of the wheel. Take half the wheel diameter and add it to the height measurement. Now you have it to the center of the wheel.
2. You Canadian's made of sugar? I thought it was Maple Syrup.
3. I see a good business opportunity to sell flashlights to Canada!

Looks like you could drop $180-334 for shocks only now for your trip and then save up for that lift you want. If you take Mr. Mudd's post that I linked to above you may be able to get the dampers now for around $400 and add OME springs later, which would minimize the wasting of money to install costs rather than equipment AND installation costs.

Can you put Bilstein 4600s on stock springs? Bilstein says they are OE replacement but you probably shouldn't put the long shock on there as that is an OE replacement for a different vehicle. I'm sure you can come up with some solution that will make due for what your needs are for now, even though you know it won't last forever. You know, like humans usually do.

 

[Adam Roby]

Yes measure center of hub, center cap whatever to bottom of the flare measuring from ground up takes in way too many variables

Any clue what the heights would have been from the factory?
I want to put into perspective just how much it might have sagged since then.

Also, I think the driver's side is lower than the passenger side, normal?

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

I could spend the money on the lift, I just don't want to. I don't need a suspension rated for the Australian Outback here on the mean highways of Southern California. I went on a "trail" last weekend that I could have taken in my 325i. I'm not spending $800 on something I don't need or even want...

Suspension discussions are always interesting - especially in online forums. In the case of the KJ, the misunderstanding comes when the installation of quality springs results in a higher ride compared to the old factory springs. The "lift" that results is assumed to mean that - because it's a Jeep - it must be a rough-riding, harsh buckboard only suitable for trails and farm fields. The overlooked fact is that Chrysler put crap springs on the KJ and they sagged early and badly. Good, quality springs make the KJ ride far better than it ever did from the factory and probably more like what the engineers designed before the bean counters made them go cheap.

Think about all those McPherson strut vehicles out there - many of which have McPhersons at all four corners. A McPherson incorporates the spring and shock in one unit and eliminates the upper control arm. When the struts go bad, guess what gets replaced? Both the spring AND the shock so that both components are new and work together. People get their struts replaced all the time and 9 times out of 10 there is a small "lift" from the fresh springs.

Tom's recommendation to replace the shock and spring at the same time follows that same logic; as he said in his post above, it's like replacing the brake rotor but not the pads. Braking efficiency is compromised as is safety because the pads and rotors aren't working together. One component is most of the way through it's useful life while the other is brand new - that vehicle is NOT going to stop as it should.

So installing a set of OME or Ironman springs - though they will certainly do great in the Australian Outback - makes the KJ ride smoothly and steadily on the highway and I speak from a lot of experience. I take my Jeep offroad year round AND drive about 3000 miles a month for my business during the winter. Being in the Jeep for 8 to 10 hours a day I wouldn't - and couldn't - ride in my Libby if it were harsh.

Adam, in order to replace the front shocks on the Liberty the entire coil/shock assembly unit has to be removed from the Jeep, disassembled and then reassembled. So it's not like the shocks can just be changed leaving the springs alone. In the back, yes, the shocks can be replaced without touching the springs. Take a look at the front coilover spring/shock combo on the front of your Liberty to see what I mean.

Adam, check out the OME distributors in Canada so you don't get screwed by the exchange rate :waytogo:

Bob

 

[ozone000]

So I'm thinking a OME 2927/2947 with Bilstein OE replacement struts and Dakota replacement shocks would be around $660. That's reasonable but I'm not jumping at it. Have to talk that one over with the wife. I told her I wasn't going to pay $900. Not sure about $700 but it's better.

I'm still academically curious, speaking of size only and not strut quality, why you can use a OME but not a Monroe that is longer and has nearly the same travel.

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

So I'm thinking a OME 2927/2947 with Bilstein OE replacement struts and Dakota replacement shocks would be around $660. That's reasonable but I'm not jumping at it. Have to talk that one over with the wife. I told her I wasn't going to pay $900. Not sure about $700 but it's better.

I'm still academically curious, speaking of size only and not strut quality, why you can use a OME but not a Monroe that is longer and has nearly the same travel.

Two questions, two answers:

First, when I upgraded my suspension I pieced it out and bought parts separately to make it easier on the budget (I'm married too :gr_grin: ) Bought front springs this month, rear springs next month, front shocks the following and rear shocks last (or something like that.) Took a while to assemble the kit but my budget avoided the wife's glare. Think about it - $700 spread over 4 months is less than $200/month for essentially a brand new suspension.

Second, you could use a Monroe. It will just get compressed when the Jeep's weight is on it. For comparison, the Ironman shocks are about an inch longer than the OME and they work fine.

Bob

 

[ozone000]

Suspension discussions are always interesting - especially in online forums. In the case of the KJ, the misunderstanding comes when the installation of quality springs results in a higher ride compared to the old factory springs. The "lift" that results is assumed to mean that - because it's a Jeep - it must be a rough-riding, harsh buckboard only suitable for trails and farm fields. The overlooked fact is that Chrysler put crap springs on the KJ and they sagged early and badly. Good, quality springs make the KJ ride far better than it ever did from the factory and probably more like what the engineers designed before the bean counters made them go cheap.


Yes, but unless I'm missing something the Lift and the Quality of the springs are not necessarily coupled. It is theoretically possible to have quality springs with no lift. There just aren't any made by anyone. They would be shorter but have a higher spring rate than stock to prevent sagging. That's what I mean by I don't want a lift. It's not a horrible thing, but it's like a cable company bundle. You get something you want but feel like you're paying for something you don't need. I'm either getting the full package or over-the-air only here.


Think about all those McPherson strut vehicles out there - many of which have McPhersons at all four corners. A McPherson incorporates the spring and shock in one unit and eliminates the upper control arm. When the struts go bad, guess what gets replaced? Both the spring AND the shock so that both components are new and work together. People get their struts replaced all the time and 9 times out of 10 there is a small "lift" from the fresh springs.

I understand the difference between a lift from sagged and a lift from stock. I obviously want the lift from sag but I am indifferent to the lift from stock.

Tom's recommendation to replace the shock and spring at the same time follows the same logic; as he said is his post above, it's like replacing the brake rotor but not the pads. Braking efficiency is compromised as is safety because the pads and rotors aren't working together.


I get this, and corrected myself. The dampers are still really good. So good that I assumed that they had been replaced recently. I checked it. They have not been replaced recently. Correction made. To go back to the analogy, if you went to change the brake pads and found brand new rotors, it would be nonsense to replace the new rotors too. My rotors looked new...until I measured them.

So installing a set of OME or Ironman springs - though they will certainly do great in the Australian Outback - makes the KJ ride smoothly and steadily on the highway and I speak from a lot of experience. I take my Jeep offroad year round AND drive about 3000 miles a month for my business during the winter. Being in the Jeep for 8 to 10 hours a day I wouldn't - and couldn't - ride in my Libby if it were harsh.

Sure, but is it the ONLY option for getting a good ride on the highway? The cheapest option? Most cost effective? Admittedly, there aren't a lot of options. OME springs are going in my Libby it seems. But springs are cheap compared to the shocks/struts. So tell me, what is possible between the $564 OMEs and the $192 Monroes?


Second, you could use a Monroe. It will just get compressed when the Jeep's weight is on it. For comparison, the Ironman shocks are about an inch longer than the OME and they work fine.

Are these struts not measured the same? I have Ironman's at 317mm, OME at 319 mm, Bilstein at 364 mm, and KYB at 300 mm. You say the Ironman is an inch longer than OME. I'm sure you are correct but why the disparity in the measurements?

The way I understand it is similar to a motorcycle. You compress the spring into the strut, giving the spring preload. When you put weight on the spring the spring does not compress until it hits the preloaded weight. The more the preload for any given spring, the higher the lift (what we call less free sag, but that's confusing here!).

If the measurements are not correct, then I cannot figure out how much preload each strut gives the spring. Already, the Monroes don't even compress the OE spring if you believe the stats.

Bob

I hate having a full reply in quotes but I have nothing left to say!

 

[ozone000]

Maybe I'm giving Moog springs a bad rap? I assume as OE replacements they are just as bad as the OE springs.

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

One of your questions ( ) above was, "what do you get out of $564 OME's vs $192 Monroes?"

About 80,000 miles.

The Monroes will give you decent damping for 10,000 miles and then they're shot. I've had OME's on mine nearly 90,000 miles and I'm about ready to put in new ones. That's where the quality comes from.

If you installed OME springs with no other add-ons to get more lift you're going to gain about 2.5 inches over where you are now. Which is about 1.5 inches higher than when the Jeep left the factory - you'll barely notice it. You can run stock tires and your Liberty will look great - not the 'squatty' look it probably has now but a proud, ready-to-hit-the-highway Jeep.

FWIW, I would definitely buy a Monroe product. They make a set of rear shocks with coilover helper springs that give extra support when I tow a boat or trailer or have a load of whatever in the back. Others run them too and they're a good product. Monroe's standard, repair shop/AutoZone shocks - nah.

Bob

 

[ozone000]

TwoBobs,

That does appear to be what I said. That is not what I meant. I meant that if I can install OME (good and pricey) and I can install Monroes (bad but cheap), what is in between (decent and decent) that can physically be installed?

I was looking at KYB. The rears have a monotube available but the fronts SAY they are only 300 mm long, which would be ridiculous if true. I guess I could do Bilstein front and KYB monotube in back.

 

[tommudd]

Any clue what the heights would have been from the factory?
I want to put into perspective just how much it might have sagged since then.

Also, I think the driver's side is lower than the passenger side, normal?

Before April 12, 2002 it was 19.75, after that date 19 inches in front
Normal for the drivers side to sit lower due to wear

 

[tommudd]

From what I've read here it's 19.5 in the back and 19 in the front. Supposedly it's more accurate going from the ground to the frame but I haven't seen what those numbers are supposed to be.

1. You don't have to find the perfect center. Find the upper edge of the wheel and measure to that. Then measure the diameter of the wheel. Take half the wheel diameter and add it to the height measurement. Now you have it to the center of the wheel.
2. You Canadian's made of sugar? I thought it was Maple Syrup.
3. I see a good business opportunity to sell flashlights to Canada!

Looks like you could drop $180-334 for shocks only now for your trip and then save up for that lift you want. If you take Mr. Mudd's post that I linked to above you may be able to get the dampers now for around $400 and add OME springs later, which would minimize the wasting of money to install costs rather than equipment AND installation costs.

Can you put Bilstein 4600s on stock springs? Bilstein says they are OE replacement but you probably shouldn't put the long shock on there as that is an OE replacement for a different vehicle. I'm sure you can come up with some solution that will make due for what your needs are for now, even though you know it won't last forever. You know, like humans usually do.

Now you are only confusing yourself

NOT more accurate measuring from the ground to the frame when comparing lifts, sag etc. Doing that mixes in tire sizes, etc and everyone would be somewhat different

 

[tommudd]

So I'm thinking a OME 2927/2947 with Bilstein OE replacement struts and Dakota replacement shocks would be around $660. That's reasonable but I'm not jumping at it. Have to talk that one over with the wife. I told her I wasn't going to pay $900. Not sure about $700 but it's better.

I'm still academically curious, speaking of size only and not strut quality, why you can use a OME but not a Monroe that is longer and has nearly the same travel.

Monroes do not hold up well

 

[tommudd]

TwoBobs,

That does appear to be what I said. That is not what I meant. I meant that if I can install OME (good and pricey) and I can install Monroes (bad but cheap), what is in between (decent and decent) that can physically be installed?

I was looking at KYB. The rears have a monotube available but the fronts SAY they are only 300 mm long, which would be ridiculous if true. I guess I could do Bilstein front and KYB monotube in back.

Please stick with Bilstein, Ironman or OME, proven 1000s of times over to be a much better shock for the KJs PERIOD
And why worry about shock length, there is not much difference and you'll never use the full length anyways unless you go offroad a LOT. Even then with the front setup, you'd rarely use that extra 2 mm

ONLY Monroes that do hold up are the coilover rear shocks that you use when pulling a load etc. I was the first to test them and use them all of the time. Have went through 2 sets of those on the back of my 04 .

 

[ozone000]

:happy175:


You're right. That would be impossible to compare different Jeeps, wouldn't it? I read that on the Frankenlift site, but that was probably only to compare the Jeep to itself at various stages of lift

And Tom, you're going to take a minute to get used to. Not sure if you recognized the following exchange where you say the Monroes change size.

Me:...speaking of size only and not strut quality...
You: Monroes do not hold up well

And I want to apologize. I remembered how to search a forum using Google and it works so much better (no more error messages!) and I quickly found that all front struts are the same size.

This whole thread was avoidable, but at least we all learned something....right....right? :shrug:

 

[ozone000]

In your opinion, how important is the longer Dakota rear shock with OME rear springs? We're talking about a half inch difference between Ironman and Bilstein...plus, wouldn't it be stock amount of flex anyways? It's not like the extra $30 will break the bank or anything.

 

[tommudd]

In your opinion, how important is the longer Dakota rear shock with OME rear springs? We're talking about a half inch difference between Ironman and Bilstein...plus, wouldn't it be stock amount of flex anyways? It's not like the extra $30 will break the bank or anything.

Yes you need the l;onger shocks, common sense since you will be 2.5 inches higher than new stock height, they will top out when even pulling into the mall
1/2 inch ( Ironman -vs- Bilstein ) not that much depends on what you want

 

[tommudd]

:happy175:


You're right. That would be impossible to compare different Jeeps, wouldn't it? I read that on the Frankenlift site, but that was probably only to compare the Jeep to itself at various stages of lift

And Tom, you're going to take a minute to get used to. Not sure if you recognized the following exchange where you say the Monroes change size.

Me:...speaking of size only and not strut quality...
You: Monroes do not hold up well

And I want to apologize. I remembered how to search a forum using Google and it works so much better (no more error messages!) and I quickly found that all front struts are the same size.

This whole thread was avoidable, but at least we all learned something....right....right? :shrug:

You learned something, :gr_grin:not we unless you have a mouse in your pocket:shrug::happy175::happy175:
Everyone here and on other KJs forums knows that all front shocks are the same as stock except the Ironman which are a bit longer.
As far as comparing, I have drivern all except maybe 0ne or two of the over 35 I've lifted before and after we lifted them, so much difference overall no matter which shocks ( OME or Bilstein) . One we did with a Rustys lift drove good but not great due to poor shocks in the rear from the get go.
Yes you can tell a difference if using a good setup in the front and cheap in the rear, it feels unbalanced

 

[Adam Roby]

...after that date 19 inches in front
Normal for the drivers side to sit lower due to wear

Hmmm... sounds like mine has not sagged very much then, 1/4 - 1/2 inch at least on the tall side (comparatively to others that have posted).

Is this why they sell leveling kits, to make left and right equal? Or are you supposed to make front and back level?

 

[tommudd]

Hmmm... sounds like mine has not sagged very much then, 1/4 - 1/2 inch at least on the tall side (comparatively to others that have posted).

Is this why they sell leveling kits, to make left and right equal? Or are you supposed to make front and back level?

No on the leveling kits and I'd question the measurements unless everything has been replaced at some point on yours.
Example my 03 I picked up last fall with 81,000 miles, one owner, older couple not even on a dirt road, garage kept and pampered its whole life was 1.5 inches lower than new stock height.
I did a lift on a 06 that had 79,000 miles that he brought it to me to find some strange noises and find out why his tires were rubbing.
79,000 miles and was just almost 2 inches below stock, his CVs were going up towards the tires :icon_lol:
Leveling kits maybe OK for a new Dodge/ Ford etc pickup ( when brand new) but never a good idea on a KJ or try to bandaid failing springs and shocks.

 

[ozone000]

Yes you need the l;onger shocks, common sense since you will be 2.5 inches higher than new stock height, they will top out when even pulling into the mall
1/2 inch ( Ironman -vs- Bilstein ) not that much depends on what you want

No, the Ironman shocks that I would assume are made to go with their springs as part of the kit SAY that they are only 1/2 inch longer than the Bilstein that are OE replacements. I'm asking if I can go with the Bilsteins OE or Bilstein Dakota or if I may even need Ironman Dakota (Edit: Nevermind, there is no opportunity nor need to get Ironman Dakota anyways.)

Looking at how the suspension is designed that's pretty much a linear half inch but that's assuming the measurements are meaningful. They obviously are not for the front so why should they be for the rear?

I know a lot of people seem to get the extra long Bilstein...but then most are doing OME with extra isolators and such. I'm leaning towards Ironman with the less lift and higher rate springs.