Need new front springs...

[tommudd]

No, the Ironman shocks that I would assume are made to go with their springs as part of the kit SAY that they are only 1/2 inch longer than the Bilstein that are OE replacements. I'm asking if I can go with the Bilsteins OE or Bilstein Dakota or if I may even need Ironman Dakota (Edit: Nevermind, there is no opportunity nor need to get Ironman Dakota anyways.)

Looking at how the suspension is designed that's pretty much a linear half inch but that's assuming the measurements are meaningful. They obviously are not for the front so why should they be for the rear?

I know a lot of people seem to get the extra long Bilstein...but then most are doing OME with extra isolators and such. I'm leaning towards Ironman with the less lift and higher rate springs.

I would highly suggest going OME over Ironman, while good, OME is just a tad better ( have ran both )
ONLY Jeep LIBERTY KJ shocks can be installed on the front,
rear when going anything over stock ( even 1.5-2 inches ) YOU NEED longer rear shocks.

But this is my last post here
sorry but seems like this has gotten on a Merry Go Round and we are getting no where fast, my little red pony is getting tired. Ringing the bell and jumping off
Have fun measuring, looking, discussing things that we figured out 12 years ago ! LOL
Good evening

 

[ozone000]

I thought it was your last post here 3 pages ago.

If the sticky had been updated in the last 12 years I wouldn't have all these questions.

If measurements meant anything to OME or Ironman I wouldn't have these questions either. Rancho, Monroe, and Bilstein have measurements that match each other.

Your apparent inability to read what is being written is astounding. I'd laugh it off if you weren't so condescending.

What you could have said in Post #2 is:
"For the front they all fit because they are all the same size, but doing this is not recommended. For the rear no OME will work with the stock shocks or any OE replacement. "

Done. See how easy that was and it also answers my actual question.

But no, you want to talk about dampers and lift, contradict yourself, and then complain when I have more questions that you didn't answer in the first place. With all your experience you can't even seem to keep struts or shocks straight.

I've tried to be respectful to a man with over 12,000 posts and clearly a ton of experience, but I'm not a child. I take the time to read posts and understand what is being written. I have the ability and facility to do this work myself. If basic human level respect is not flowing in both directions then you may as well not post anything anyway.

For any that are interested, I'm looking towards the Moog springs with the Bilstein 4600 OE replacement shocks. It appears that Moog are not replacement springs but a minor upgrade to proper spring rates. Though since none of these manufacturers give any reliable data who knows. I've tried to wrap my head around how higher rate springs improve handling a Jeep but in no other vehicle. I have come to the conclusion that they likely don't defy physics. I wouldn't jack up the preload on my Triumph to improve the ride or put stiffer springs on my BMW to maintain wheel contact and I strongly suspect a Jeep is no different. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not paying $900 to find out.

 

[Adam Roby]

...I'd question the measurements unless everything has been replaced at some point on yours....

I doubt anything has been changed but since I am a new owner and there is absolutely no history from the PO but I can't really say.

I took some more accurate measurements this evening, and aired on the lower side just to be conservative (the fender is rounded a bit so...).


Front.Left. 18 1/4"
Front.Right 18 3/8"
Back..Left. 18 3/4"
Back..Right 18 9/16"


Definitely lopsided anyways. 3/4" drop on the front left side (which sounds "normal" since the driver side is usually lower).

 

[Adam Roby]

...You Canadian's made of sugar? I thought it was Maple Syrup.

Hey, eh! What's with the Canadian Bashing eh?
I'll smack you around with my hockey stick...
Then I'll apologize profusely and invite you over to my igloo for a beer and moose cakes... Mmmm... moose cakes. Wait, that's more Homer Simpson, not one of ours... oh well.

:happy175:

 

[ozone000]

All in good fun Adam!

Besides, it was more of an out in the rain without a flashlight bashing. You couldn't have waited a bit to get good measurements?

I just imagine you, running out to the KJ in a bathrobe, no socks, freezing, with a school ruler because that's all you could find, to measure your sag RIGHT NOW!

 

[Adam Roby]

All in good fun Adam!

Besides, it was more of an out in the rain without a flashlight bashing. You couldn't have waited a bit to get good measurements?

I just imagine you, running out to the KJ in a bathrobe, no socks, freezing, with a school ruler because that's all you could find, to measure your sag RIGHT NOW!

BAHAHAH... you could not guessed it more accurately... and to add to the illusion, I had my 6 year old daughter in the tub so I was also being a terrible parent at the same time, hence the rushing to measure. I'm still not convinced I got accurate measurements...

 

[ozone000]

If I were you I'd get the $323 Bilstein kit from 4wheelparts installed. Well, maybe not the kit but the prices are only $20 different if you buy the 24-139168 separately from the 33-185859. A bit pricey for a band-aid, but usable if you want to upgrade later and will probably solve your wallowing problem. Not that your sag is ideal, but if you can hit all your alignment points you are within spec. I am not.

Otherwise, KYB is either fine or horrible depending on who you ask, but the whole set can be had for about $150. Not bad for parts you don't intend to keep or don't know are even the problem. Those may be already at a local store. You can rip the band-aid off later once you are done bleeding.

 

[Adam Roby]

Just spent the last 30 minutes trying to remove a wheel.
Was getting close to the cut-off date for our winter tire law and I needed to have my new rubber installed, only garage available was a local Speed Muffler. Guy doing the work was a complete moron, scratched my rims and got black **** all over them, took me a week to get off all the extra crap he put. I have my compressor on full blast (110 lbs), won't budge. Tire iron will all my weight (200 lbs), nothing. Sprayed, waited, sprayed, waited, tried with the long bar... broke the chrome caps off 2 of the nuts... still won't budge.

I HATE GARAGES!!!!! I can't trust a single one of them.... how stupid can they be?

Now I have to go to another stinking useless POS garage, probably have to change all the nuts, maybe even some of the bolts now if they are stretched to hell...

Sorry... had to rant. I hate having a weekend plan and having it spoiled for nonsense.
Had to rotate the tires, check and measure brakes and rotors, check for looseness in the rear-end... out to the crapper now.

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

Hey ozone000 - one of the difficulties of online forums is the inability to hear a dry sense of humor or irony. No insult is intended and none should be taken.

Unfortunately with the KJ there aren't a lot of options - and lack of options means lack of info on parts like exact spring rates, etc.

You can run a set of Monroes with the Bilstein shocks - it will be better than the original suspension but not as good as it could be with OME or Ironman. The rates of springs from Rusty's, KYB and others are often the same or in some cases lower than factory - they ride nice and soft but turn into sagged goop in short order. The front shocks (they aren't struts since they're a separate component and not integrated with the spring and A-arm) are the same length generally whether the Jeep is lifted or not. The rears are stock or longer depending on whether you go with a stock or taller coil spring.

The increased height you lift the rear is directly proportional to the additional length you need on the shocks. In the front, the height gained is double the amount you extend the length of the front coilover assembly with a top spacer and/or clevis lift due to the fact the coilover is applying its force on the short end of a fulcrum. So if you apply a 1/4" spacer above the coilover you'll gain 1/2" of lift. Apply a 1/4" spacer in back and you gain just that same 1/4" lift.

May be a lot more than is worth throwing in a post - but I had the urge :gr_grin:

Bob

 

[ozone000]

So they are. JBA website, Jeep Service Manual and Parts Fiche, and several other places have "strut" written everywhere but you are right and they are all wrong (no sarcasm intended). No steering connection. Huh.

www.1aauto.com/content/articles/shocks-and-struts

I wonder if 4wheelparts will give the lower price for the 4 shocks rather than 2 struts 2 shocks for the Bilsteins. That's a pretty big savings! UPDATE: 4wheelparts thinks they are struts too. No savings.

All the more reason to ensure that if you are referring to the front shocks or rear shocks you are very clear as they are very different. Probably why the are called "struts" in the literature. On the KJ if you say strut everyone knows what you are talking about. If you just say shock then its left in the air.

 

[ozone000]

You can run a set of Monroes with the Bilstein shocks - it will be better than the original suspension but not as good as it could be with OME or Ironman. The rates of springs from Rusty's, KYB and others are often the same or in some cases lower than factory - they ride nice and soft but turn into sagged goop in short order. The front shocks (they aren't struts since they're a separate component and not integrated with the spring and A-arm) are the same length generally whether the Jeep is lifted or not. The rears are stock or longer depending on whether you go with a stock or taller coil spring.
:gr_grin:

Bob

I haven't seen any Monroe or KYB springs. They may have stopped making them. Yeah, forgot about the Rusty's, 150# rate is supposedly the same as stock.

Moog does not have rates for the front, but they do for the rear and it says 195#, which is more than the 2947 OME and not far from the 2948. For a few dollars it's worth risking the fronts, I can calculate the rate close enough for my needs in person. Maybe I'll order the diesel and the 4WD version just to make sure.

Put one on the left and one on the right to compare them...:ROFLJest:

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

Put one on the left and one on the right to compare them...:ROFLJest:

Don't write that too loud - some newb will read this thread and actually do it. :ROFLJest:

Bob

 

[Adam Roby]

Don't write that too loud - some newb will read this thread and actually do it. :ROFLJest:

Bob

Oh crap, you were kidding? Guess I'll have to cancel that order.

 

[tommudd]

Oh crap, you were kidding? Guess I'll have to cancel that order.

Just go ahead Adam, install the CRD coil on the left side since its always lower a bit anyways.
:happy175::happy175::happy175:

 

[Adam Roby]

Just FYI - I just went to HD and bought a 6' galvanized metal pipe to use over my breaker bar to loosed the lug nuts. Still had to put in some effort even at that length, and broke off the chrome caps off a few of them. Canadian Tire wanted $10 for a set of 4 (useless - $50 for the same chrome capped - no thanks). Local autoparts had the metal chrome plated ones for $0.70 a pop... with 3 minutes before closing.

Back to work...

 

[tommudd]

Just FYI - I just went to HD and bought a 6' galvanized metal pipe to use over my breaker bar to loosed the lug nuts. Still had to put in some effort even at that length, and broke off the chrome caps off a few of them. Canadian Tire wanted $10 for a set of 4 (useless - $50 for the same chrome capped - no thanks). Local autoparts had the metal chrome plated ones for $0.70 a pop... with 3 minutes before closing.

Back to work...

Must of been some big dude install those :happy175::happy175:

 

[ozone000]

I installed a spindle nut (same principle as a lug nut) on my bike once. I always use a torque wrench. When I took it off the next time, I needed to use a pipe I had laying around to get enough leverage. The pipe was 10 ft.

Easy day.

That's why I never to go Canadian Tire. :gr_grin:

 

[ozone000]

Well after discussion with the partner, we decided that the Moog springs were too risky. Since there is no information on them we decided that we should pay for what we know. Which is unfortunate, I hate buying things simply because of information asymmetry.

Going to go with OME as tommudd suggested, still deciding on 926 vs 927 and Dakota vs. Durango rear Bilsteins.

Any thoughts? Please don't just say 927. That may very well be the best option, but I'd like to know why.

 

[tommudd]

Well after discussion with the partner, we decided that the Moog springs were too risky. Since there is no information on them we decided that we should pay for what we know. Which is unfortunate, I hate buying things simply because of information asymmetry.

Going to go with OME as tommudd suggested, still deciding on 926 vs 927 and Dakota vs. Durango rear Bilsteins.

Any thoughts? Please don't just say 927. That may very well be the best option, but I'd like to know why.

IF you do not much lift at all go with 926s , ride will still be way better than new stock
As far as rear shocks Dakota -vs- Durango , they are the same really no real difference. Same length. I would still go with the 948 rear springs

 

[ozone000]

My primary concern is evenness. A level Jeep is more important to me than a high one.

I think I'll go with the matching set of Md/Md, 926/948 and Bilstein for Durangos since they are designed for the heavier rear.