3.7 oil crud probelm

[mx3_ryder]

So a 2012 engine will bolt into an '02 without modifications and everything bolts up, even the computer works? Or am I not understanding that right?

02-04 are the same and 05 and up are the same. Conundrum2006 has an 06. To get a newer 05 and up engine to work in 02-04 Liberty you will need to remove crankshaft to swap reluctor ring as well as swap cam sprocket tone ring. So to answer your question, you can't swap a 2012 in a 2002 without modding.

"Check out these worklogs"

http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f222/mx3_ryders-02-limited-57124/

http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/f202/engine-swap-overview-53270/

 

[Conundrum2006]

So a 2012 engine will bolt into an '02 without modifications and everything bolts up, even the computer works? Or am I not understanding that right?

It's like they said you'd have to swap a few things over but the newer block and heads (after modification) would work with the older computer. It should be simple to a good mechanic if you have someone doing the work for you.

It's kind of a brilliant way to update the jeeps engine and keep it original.

Since I've been researching this and searching parts all over I did a quick search for 02 motors. There are not many used that have less than 70k, a few 03 and 04s in the 40k to 60k range if the junk yards are honest.
I can send the search to you if you'd like them, thing is the price depending where you are may rival a rebuilt unit and a rebuilt motor would be a drop in job just swap all accessories and it should have the updated parts and block as well, plus a warranty.

The brilliance of what these guys did is use easier to find motors from newer cars with low miles to revitalize the 3.7, in my experience the prices for newer low mileage motors are cheaper then the older style or a rebuild.

 

[Conundrum2006]

I would just swap out that old gunky engine for the new one right away. You'll never get that stuff properly cleaned out without rebuilding it. I can only imagine what the bottom of the pan and pickup screen look like. Stop spending money on oil treatments, filters etc. and put that towards your new engine. You'll instantly get an increase in power and mileage from the new engine. Just wait and see!! :happy160:

I know you are right. It'd be the smart thing to do.
Actually thinking about swapping in a three year old motor I really want to pull the old motor and tear it down.

My scheduled along with the up coming holidays doesn't leave a lot of time to get a job like this done.
Biggest priority is to get the jeep so it can drive. New motor would be the sweetest way to do that but.. just getting it stable would be a big improvement too.


When I do get to the swap what kind of weird things (parts, gaskets, seals) do I need to locate before hand?
Any other parts I should think about changing while the motor is out?

 

[TwoBobsKJ]

I know you are right. It'd be the smart thing to do.
Actually thinking about swapping in a three year old motor I really want to pull the old motor and tear it down.

My scheduled along with the up coming holidays doesn't leave a lot of time to get a job like this done.
Biggest priority is to get the jeep so it can drive. New motor would be the sweetest way to do that but.. just getting it stable would be a big improvement too.


When I do get to the swap what kind of weird things (parts, gaskets, seals) do I need to locate before hand?
Any other parts I should think about changing while the motor is out?

In my experience there really wasn't anything out of the ordinary to get - just the usual gaskets and such that are wear items and that you don't want to use over again. Things like intake and exhaust gaskets, etc.

The only item I wasn't planning on replacing were the engine mounts - they were completely shot. My local NAPA had them for me the next morning so I slapped them on while I had the block apart to change out the crank reluctor ring. Even if I hadn't had to do anything to the block they're easy to change out - four bolts each side. Depending on how the Commander's engine bay looks it may be easier to remove the existing engine by unbolting the mounts instead of the through-bolt that holds the mount to the cradle. In the Liberty I was able to just loosen the through-bolt and lift the engine out - when I put the engine on an engine stand that's when I saw the worn mounts.

Bob

 

[M38 Bob]

Not in my nature to replace a running engine, spend that sort of money/time/labor unless a last resort. If you're contemplating changing it out any way, what could you possibly have to loose with a kerosene flush???

Bob

 

[mx3_ryder]

Not in my nature to replace a running engine, spend that sort of money/time/labor unless a last resort. If you're contemplating changing it out any way, what could you possibly have to loose with a kerosene flush???

Bob

Unless you can't drive 20 miles without needing to change the filter

 

[M38 Bob]

Buy CHEAP filters, change during flush.

Or, spend as much as the vehicle's worth on a replacement engine,,,,,,,,,,,,, your dime.

Bob

 

[Bluefish]

Hi conundrum! Sorry to hear your 3.7 is slipping towards the grip of Black Death.

I had a worst possible case oil crud scenario with a Ram V10. I used the motor from a parts truck I bought out of impound for a swap (dumb). Oil was obviously never changed, no maintenance. The valve covers had solid cubes of crud under them. I picked at it all with a screwdriver and let er fly.. Had low oil pressure at first startup. I did the kerosene soak, several times and it looked like black water when I drained it.

What finally solved it, and may be your ticket, was a mixture of Mobile 1 oil, Rotella T6 diesel synthetic, and a little less than a quart of atf. Mobile 1 alone has cleaned many engines for me. I know because after switching to it in every BMW I buy, my valve train turns bright and shiny like day one. Rotella t6 is a diesel oil with high detergent content which cleans your engine. Atf also has very high detergent content. I used valvoline Maxlife. The synthetic oils do not break down like Dino oil, so I left that in there for about 1k miles. Oil pressure restored, and now at oil changes the used oil comes out clean like it should. That motor went in the truck 7 or 8 years ago, and it's still burning rubber and slinging mud every chance it gets. I would say try this before swapping for a new engine!

 

[Conundrum2006]

Not in my nature to replace a running engine, spend that sort of money/time/labor unless a last resort. If you're contemplating changing it out any way, what could you possibly have to loose with a kerosene flush???

Bob

I've already got all the stuff for the flush, cheap filters etc. So I'm going to try it and see what happens, if worse come to worse I'll swap in a new motor. At the very least it will be instructional for others, just out of curiosity I'd like to see what it does and how clean it gets the engine. That and as you say I've got nothing to lose.

I'm pressed for time the next few weeks I might get a day or two home in the next 24 hours. What would be the best way to proceed? I thought about letting the kerosene sit over night to 24 hours to dissolve the sludge at the bottom of the pan and pick up tube, then doing the flush by running it.

 

[Conundrum2006]

Hi conundrum! Sorry to hear your 3.7 is slipping towards the grip of Black Death.

I had a worst possible case oil crud scenario with a Ram V10. I used the motor from a parts truck I bought out of impound for a swap (dumb). Oil was obviously never changed, no maintenance. The valve covers had solid cubes of crud under them. I picked at it all with a screwdriver and let er fly.. Had low oil pressure at first startup. I did the kerosene soak, several times and it looked like black water when I drained it.

What finally solved it, and may be your ticket, was a mixture of Mobile 1 oil, Rotella T6 diesel synthetic, and a little less than a quart of atf. Mobile 1 alone has cleaned many engines for me. I know because after switching to it in every BMW I buy, my valve train turns bright and shiny like day one. Rotella t6 is a diesel oil with high detergent content which cleans your engine. Atf also has very high detergent content. I used valvoline Maxlife. The synthetic oils do not break down like Dino oil, so I left that in there for about 1k miles. Oil pressure restored, and now at oil changes the used oil comes out clean like it should. That motor went in the truck 7 or 8 years ago, and it's still burning rubber and slinging mud every chance it gets. I would say try this before swapping for a new engine!

Black Death.; I like it! Very apt.

I've heard (for this kid of purpose) the old school ATF is better than the new stuff because the new stuff reacts differently to the heat I guess, not sure why that would be it runs hot enough in a transmission. But then I've never heard of this exact cocktail either.

Used Mobil 1 in plenty of vehicles seems to live up to the reputation. Keep Mobil 1 or royal purple in my 7M Toyota.

how much Rotella T6 did you use? 50/50 mobil 1?

My goal for the flush is to clean up the particulates in the oil clogging the filter, making it drivable.
Before the ill fated flush at the oil change place it drove fine, enough power, seemed to get better MPG than our cherokee. Then again we put less than 1k on it so we don't really know the characteristics of the vehicle well.

I'm really at a point where we have nothing to lose by experimenting, if it works out great. if not there's a deposit on a low mileage replacement.

I'm not sure if the stuff I see in the oil (pumped out into the filter), is just the accumulation of crud in the oil pan or new crud breaking away as the engine runs.
When I pulled the drivers valve cover it was gunky but didn't seem to be lose enough to be flaking off, a lot of the motor I haven't seen where it could be flaking off.

I wish the oem set up had pressure gauge, my f150 does but it is essentially an idiot light, our old cheorkees and toyota have gauges and once you know the car they help keep track of what going on with the engine.

 

[Bluefish]

Black Death was a thing back before oil technology advanced now it's less common and only happens if oil changes are not done regularly

Fluid maintenance is the best thing I've learned to keep up on over the years. As a service writer in a shop I was always about preventative maintenance and helping people keep their cars on the road.

About 50/50 is what i used. T6 is cheaper than Mobile 1, could probably do T6 and atf with the same results. O'riellys is usually the cheapest place to pick up a big jug of it (5qts? I think).. Some walmarts have it too. Best of luck to you, I really hope you can save that engine! Keep slapping it with cheap oil filters and run til she blows or comes clean!!

 

[jeepguy4276]

I wasn't trying to hijack this thread or anything when I asked my question. My engine runs perfect and doesn't seem to have any issues. I was confused about the fact that people are able to swap in newer motors. Thanks for clearing it up. I understand it requires mods to fit an 02. Thanks for the clarification guys.

I've used the kerosene cleanup on a few motors in the past with great luck. I never let it sit more than a short time but it sure cleaned things up. Stopped a tick on a 304 in a cj once.

 

[Hockeygoon]

Black Death was a thing back before oil technology advanced now it's less common and only happens if oil changes are not done regularly

Fluid maintenance is the best thing I've learned to keep up on over the years. As a service writer in a shop I was always about preventative maintenance and helping people keep their cars on the road.

About 50/50 is what i used. T6 is cheaper than Mobile 1, could probably do T6 and atf with the same results. O'riellys is usually the cheapest place to pick up a big jug of it (5qts? I think).. Some walmarts have it too. Best of luck to you, I really hope you can save that engine! Keep slapping it with cheap oil filters and run til she blows or comes clean!!

Actually it seems to have become more common in the past 10-15 years as manufacturers had advised longer oil change intervals only to learn how poorly their engines actually perform outside a lab. Check out the failure rate of the GM 3.6, the Chrysler 2.7, 3.7 and 4.7, the Ford 5.4 cam phasers, Toyota 3.0 V6, VW 1.8, Honda V6s and so on. All have spent millions upon millions in warranty claims and/or reputations damaged for their failure to correctly advise basic engine maintenance. Newer multivalve and variable timing engines that depend heavily upon engine oil to function properly need clean oil. Engines like the Chrysler 2.7 have design issues that turn the failure of a cheap part (like a water pump) into a catastrophic failure that destroys the entire engine.

 

[Conundrum2006]

I wasn't trying to hijack this thread or anything when I asked my question. My engine runs perfect and doesn't seem to have any issues. I was confused about the fact that people are able to swap in newer motors. Thanks for clearing it up. I understand it requires mods to fit an 02. Thanks for the clarification guys.

I've used the kerosene cleanup on a few motors in the past with great luck. I never let it sit more than a short time but it sure cleaned things up. Stopped a tick on a 304 in a cj once.

It's cool it was all over the place about crud and the replacement options.

Did the flush today I'm about to write up what happened.

 

[M38 Bob]

Baited breath!

Bob

 

[CactusJacked]

Did the flush today I'm about to write up what happened.

I'm all ears...

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[Conundrum2006]

OK did the flush with kerosene today.
The only change to the prescription was not driving it around after the first fresh oil after the kerosene. I revved it up to 2k and held it around 1200 to 1500 to simulate driving conditions.

The rest was as prescribed. I did not try the letting it soak for a day or two
The kerosene was at it darkest maybe a tea color. The first filter change (after 2 min) looked very light colored. It was always see through never black or dark brown.

With the first oil change where i simulated driving it was beginning to make low oil sounds before 10 minutes were up. Oil light never came oil but i cut it off and did the final oil change.

The crud still coming out it is surprising. Not just the same black flecks but some white detritus as well. I had originally assumed there was a lot of dirt form the bottom of the jeep contaminating the oil pan results. Maybe it is some of that too, or it is what it is period.
At the last oil change step I saw a piece of light colored crud float out with the oil spilling out of the motor when the filter was removed. So i can only assume at this point it is from the motor.


I think it's time to call it. I'm wondering now if the lighter color crud is come sort of head gasket patch job. I've never used that crap so no idea what it looks like.

I wiped the oil pan down before the last oil change. but as I'm sure you know oil tends to spill over the splash shield the oil drain bolt is accessed from.

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[Conundrum2006]

Last night on the way home I stopped by the junk yard before they closed and bought that motor I told you all about.
It is real clean and only damage is the guy pulling it wrapped the chain around the exhaust manifolds to lift and the chain cracked the valve covers (the front end was not crumpled at all and the air bag did not go off.)
From the damage to the heat shields I'm guessing that's what happened.

Bought it because with tax it was 1600 cheaper than a rebuild one by aer. My hopes to salvage the current motor are going up in smoke. Figured if it wasn't needed I could save for another 3.7 jeep I'll surly buy sometime.

Here is a pic of the motor. The only black crud is plastic from the valve cover being crushed at one spot.


It looks great, looks like 32k motor. has a factory oil filter so the previous owner probably was still taking it in for factory maintenance. or they shop at walmart :shrug:

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[Conundrum2006]

Baited breath!

Bob

I'm all ears...

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Dear god it's fugly!


For what it is worth I think the kerosene flush was a great idea (will trying it again if the need presents), obviously it's a well used and documented method. My opinion is my motor has a fundamental flaw killing it. My gut says BHG right now. But I feel defeated by it so i'll have to come back to it and reexamine it.

The only thing I could do is try driving it and see what happens, don't expect it will get any farther than before.

 

[Leeann]

Last night on the way home I stopped by the junk yard before they closed and bought that motor I told you all about.

It looks great, looks like 32k motor. has a factory oil filter so the previous owner probably was still taking it in for factory maintenance. or they shop at walmart :shrug:

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That's really damn clean. I'd pull yours and pop that sucker in there.

Then tear down yours and see what's going on.