KJ pet peeves

[kj924]

I haven't read through all these posts so I don't know if I am repeating anyone. If I am, sorry but my pet peeve of the KJ is how the rear seats do not fold flat. It just seems like they should but nooOoOoOoOoOo they have to still at like a 45 degree

X2 Especially when you have a couple 300 watt Kenwood amps under them holding the seats up even further.

 

[JeepJeepster]

Seriously, am I the only one who noticed the lack of storage space? Either noone else is bothered by it or my self proclaimed reputation of "thread killer" is dead on. Seems whenever I post up on something, other than geting drunk and driving through grass median, noone acknowlegdes it. cryinghard.gif I bet the Rav 4 has better storage space!!

hahaha, so youre a attention *****?

I bought the kj since its not big.. IE, small. Personally I dont really have anything to store besides some tools, a GPS, tire gauge, booster, etc. Its got a cup holder for my water, my keys are in the ignition so I dont need to store those, cell phone is either in my pocket, door handle, or cup holder... What else is there?? Junk?? That goes in the trunk..

 

[Lancer]

Seriously, am I the only one who noticed the lack of storage space? Either noone else is bothered by it or my self proclaimed reputation of "thread killer" is dead on. Seems whenever I post up on something, other than geting drunk and driving through grass median, noone acknowlegdes it. cryinghard.gif I bet the Rav 4 has better storage space!!

That is a bit of an annoyance I agree. I got around it by fitting the Smittybilt G.E.A.R. seat covers. You can hang a LOT of PALS/MOLLE pouches on one, and I have one on each front seat! With the exception of a pouch for the first aid kit - which lives in the KJ, and another for map books, I leave the rest off until we go touring/offroad. It's particularly handy for water bottle pouches on hot days(not that we get that many of those in England)

 

[Ry' N Jen]

Ok, so I did think of a few pet peeves!
1st. When ever I go a 4X4 shop around here and make inquiries about parts and accessories,
the person on the other side of the counter asks "What kind of Jeep do you own?"
When I reply "A Jeep Liberty" I basically get laughed at in my face!
Two shops.
North Shore Off Road "Ha ha ha! Thats not a real Jeep!" and,
"You can only use OME shocks and struts with OME coils because they are matched, bla bla bla!"
Then when I inform them that many many people on this site and L.O.S.T. ...
You get the idea!

and

Cap-It. Yesterday I go into their "Signature store" for a look around and make an inquiry as to how much
an ARB bumper would cost ($1565.00!) and their installation tech, a greasy long haired goof
with bad body odor proclaims behind my back
"What a poser, why even bother?"
and
"Oh... You should trade it in and buy a real Jeep!
Then the remainder of the staff hesitantly helps me like I'm pulling their teeth out!
Said B/O boi states to his fellow co-worker, not even me, stock springs are not stiff enough!
I look Sﺇﺇh*t for brains in the eye ans comment "NO SH*T SHERLOCK, I have a Frankenlift lift kit on order out of the states."
B/O boi sarcastically asks what kind of coils does it use?
I reply " Heavy duty OME coils, and I chose Rancho struts and shocks, so yeah, suitable for an ARB front bumper!"
Why didn't you buy it from us? Is the answer.
So once again I can't keep my big mouth shut and say.
What, spend $1400.00 plus dollars on four coils and struts and shocks here after being insulted by you?
Riiight!
So fellow Canadian KJ owners, be fore warned about how KJ owners are looked upon at these two retail establishments!


And by the way...
You should know how many Rav4 all wheel drive with Tacky, cheesy, Factory applied 4X4 Flame stickers I've pulled out of six inches of wet snow last winter in parking lots and on the side of the road!
They cost the same as my KJ did new and they have the audacity to call it a Four Wheel Drive!
OOhhh Shuure!

All I can say is buy another Toyota!
Like an FJ Cruiser that tears and destroys the front strut towers when "Off roading"
Now that's what I call QUALITY!

ps: I know I don't always agree with what others here say, but at the end of the day tjkj has provided me with good solid advice and at times he is the only one who answers a question!
Keep up the good advice and often sarcastically funny comments tj!

 

[Searcher67]

Yeah I get the "it's not a real Jeep" too.... We need a windshield strip stating "YES IT"S A REAL JEEP"

 

[TigerClaws]

As for Cap-it, i've sent 3 emails enquiries for them OME coils .... never had a reply ... So i guess that makes me believe what you just said ... 2 different stores and nothing ...
Way to do business incompetents !!

 

[Ry' N Jen]

Yeah I get the "it's not a real Jeep" too.... We need a windshield strip stating "YES IT"S A REAL JEEP"

What gets me is the fact that people are so jaded when it comes to an opinion on somebody else's Jeep.
Especially when they pipe up and they don't even own a Jeep!

 

[Searcher67]

OMG... I was going to say that!!! I ride in a Wrangler quite often, and Every other Wrangler waves back.. But no one in Liberty waves to each other, We need to start that!!

 

[Rednroll]

All I can say is buy another Toyota!
Like an FJ Cruiser that tears and destroys the front strut towers when "Off roading"
Now that's what I call QUALITY!

I'm sure there are 100 stories for EVERY vehicle out there that someone could point out some kind of "QUALITY" problem.

I will tell you however....YES, I will buy another Toyota. While TJ may be the gear head, I am an engineer who works in the automotive industry and I know a thing or two also. No...I'm no mechanical engineer who designs engines and transmissions, gear boxes etc. But I am an engineer that works for a company that is a supplier to most every major automotive company out there, and I work directly with the other engineers of those automotive companies. This has given me the ability to see how each and every automotive company does things and what makes them different from one another in their design approaches and also when there are quality problems, how they go about fixing problems.

With each automotive company they each have their own specified testing specifications where EVERY part that goes in the vehicle must meet or exceed that specified test. One of those tests are "Durability" tests. This is a test where you test your supplied parts under an accelerated aging process to see what the life expectancy of the part is. Basically there is an equation where the number of hours the test runs it translates into years. Chrysler/Jeep and most of the other "Big 3" Durability test is 5 years. So ever hear of those 5 year/50,000 mile warranties???? Sure....everyone has....guess how they get their confidence level that their car will not have major quality problems within 5 years, where it will cost them a lot of money to make repairs to every vehicle through their warranty??? They get that from their "Durability" tests of EVERY part that goes into the vehicle.

Now you want to know what the durability test for all the parts that go into a Toyota vehicle equates to??? 10 Years. That's right...EVERY part that goes into a Toyota has been tested to meet or exceed a 10 year life expectancy....double the life expectancy of the parts that go into any of the cars built by Chrysler. As a supplier, the Toyota specified tests are the toughest to pass and cause much more engineering challenges. From my companies parts, Chrysler benefits from Toyota tests. Since I work for a company that supplies both to Chrysler and Toyota, we have a lot of common components we use. When selecting components, we just select them based on having to pass the Toyota tests, because we know if it passes the Toyota tests.....it will EASILY pass the Chrysler tests. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of companies that supply their parts to Toyota and Chrysler and they may only be a supplier to Chrysler. Guess, which design testing standards they are designing their parts to, so they can meet their customers testing requirements??? The 5 year one. Thus, they can use lesser "quality" parts in their designs and still meet their customer's requirements. They also like that, because now they can drive down the costs of the parts they are designing and supplying to Chrysler......because "Quality" costs money.

So earlier when I pointed out how my Rav-4's resale value is higher than my Liberty and TJ replied some nonsense about the Rav-4 maintaining it's resale value more than the Liberty based on Gas mileage.......that was just him spewing nonsense once again. As I said...he doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows....he talks a good game, but in a lot of the things I've seen him saying, He talks a good talk but really doesn't know sh*t,and therefore does not deserve to be putting others down. Gas prices are currently at a low. The reason why my Toyota maintains it's resale value is because of what I just described above. The Toyota will last longer with less problems, and people have come to realize that as a fact with Toyota vehicles as a whole. You ever own an American made vehicle and all of a sudden it seemed like after 5 years you where like "Damn...I fix one thing and all of a sudden another thing seems to break....and it seems like my car just went out of warranty." Yeah....there is a reason for that, and I just described it to you above. THAT is also WHY my Rav-4's resale value is higher than my Jeep Liberty's....not some B.S. like your hero TJ pulled out of his azz.

So yes, I will buy another Toyota. They pay my salary.....even more than Chrysler does. Don't even try to go all Japanese vs. U.S. on me either and how I'm not being loyal.....remember I also bought a Jeep. But I will tell you this, just in case you where thinking it. I work for a U.S. based company. Our sales to Toyota continues to grow, while our sales with Chrysler continues to shrink. While at the same time I've seen more Chrysler plants closing in the U.S. and moving to Mexico and China, while Toyota has been building more and more U.S. plants and building more of their vehicles here in the U.S. as well as designing over half of their vehicles here in the U.S. So that Japanese vehicle is becoming more American than those American vehicles.....and that's a sad thing to say.

But hey......Go ahead and criticize my Toyota vehicle with some FJ Cruiser not doing well when going "off road." 99% of my driving is done ON ROAD, like I'm sure it is for the majority of the rest of the people who buy cars. I'll just sit back here and laugh, because I know what really goes on behind the scenes in the development of cars from the different manufacturers.....and laugh at your "Quality" statements, because it's easy to see, that you don't know much of what is involved in making a vehicle which has good "Quality".

 

[tjkj2002]

I'm sure there are 100 stories for EVERY vehicle that someone could point out on every vehicle in regards to QUALITY.

I will tell you however....YES, I will buy another Toyota. While TJ may be the gear head, I am engineer who works in the automotive industry and I know a thing or two also. No...I'm no mechanical engineer who designs engines and transmissions, gear boxes etc. But I am an engineer that works for a company that is a supplier to most every major automotive company out there, and I work directly with the other engineers of those automotive companies. This has given me the ability to see how each and every automotive company does things and what makes them different from one another in their design approaches and also when there are quality problems, how they go about fixing problems.

With each automotive company they each have their own specified testing specifications where EVERY part that goes in the vehicle must meet or exceed that specified test. One of those tests are "Durability" tests. This is a test where you test your supplied parts under an accelerated aging process to see what the life expectancy of the part is. Basically there is an equation where the number of hours the test runs it translates into years. Chrysler/Jeep and most of the other "Big 3" Durability test is 5 years. So ever hear of those 5 year/50,000 mile warranties???? Sure....everyone has....guess how they get their confidence level that their car will not have major quality problems within 5 years, where it will cost them a lot of money to make repairs to every vehicle through their warranty??? They get that from their "Durability" tests of EVERY part that goes into the vehicle.

Now you want to know what the durability test for all the parts that go into a Toyota vehicle equates to??? 10 Years. That's right...EVERY part that goes into a Toyota has been tested to meet or exceed a 10 year life expectancy....double the life expectancy of the parts that go into any of the cars built by Chrysler. As a supplier, the Toyota specified tests are the toughest to pass and cause much more engineering challenges. From my companies parts, Chrysler benefits from Toyota tests. Since I work for a company that supplies both to Chrysler and Toyota, we have a lot of common components we use. When selecting components, we just select them based on having to pass the Toyota tests, because we know if it passes the Toyota tests.....it will EASILY pass the Chrysler tests.

So earlier when I pointed out how my Rav-4's resale value is higher than my Liberty and TJ replied some nonsense about the Rav-4 maintaining it's resale value more than the Liberty based on Gas mileage.......that was just him spewing nonsense once again. As I said...he doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows....he talks a good game, but in a lot of the things I've seen him saying, He talks a good talk but really doesn't know sh*t,and therefore does not deserve to be putting others down. Gas prices are currently at a low. The reason why my Toyota maintains it's resale value is because of what I just described above. The Toyota will last longer with less problems, and people have to come realize that as a fact with Toyota vehicles as a whole. You ever own an American made vehicle and all of a sudden it seemed like after 5 years your where like "Damn...I fix one thing and all of a sudden another thing seems to break....and it seems like my car just went out of warranty." Yeah....there is a reason for that, and I just described it to you above. THAT is also WHY my Rav-4's resale value is higher than my Jeep Liberty's....not some B.S. like your hero TJ pulled out of his azz.

So yes, I will buy another Toyota. They pay my salary.....even more than Chrysler does. Don't even try to go all Japanese vs. U.S. on me either and how I'm not being loyal.....remember I also bought a Jeep. But I will tell you this, just in case you where thinking it. I work for a U.S. based company. Our sales to Toyota continues to grow, while our sales with Chrysler continues to shrink. While at the same time I've seen more Chrysler plants closing in the U.S. and moving to Mexico and China, Toyota has been building more and more U.S. plants and building more of their vehicles here. So that Japanese vehicle is becoming more American than those American vehicles.....and that's a sad thing to say.

But hey......Go ahead and criticize my Toyota vehicle with some FJ Cruiser not doing well when going "off road." 99% of my driving is done ON ROAD, like I'm sure it is for the majority of the rest of the people who buy cars. I'll just sit back here and laugh, because I know what really goes on behind the scenes in the development of cars from the different manufacturers.....and laugh at your "Quality" statements, because it's easy to see, that you don't know much of what is involved to make a vehicle which has good "Quality".

!0 years my a$$bs1.gif.


90% of all the major breakage's I fix are on toyota's,honda's,and nissians.They are horrible,mainly the owners are horrible and don't maintain there junk and they get really pissed at that $2000 bill on a $10,000 vehicle.Toyota's quility has gone down the crapper big time in the last few years,and yes Ford,GM,and Chrysler's have gone up and even surpased the foriegn makers in the last 4-5 years.Most poeple buy into those conumer reports that are all lies and they are bought and paid for by the auto makers and that's why US vehicles never get a good review since they refuse to pay them off.Jeep is a big one,they rate the rav4 better offroad then a Wrangler Rubicon,like that will ever happen.If your a pavement pounder then sure a rav4 will work,I'm very rough on my vehicles and a toyota will not live very long with me driving,any toyota.The Liberty has been a great vehicle,as far as actual faults that was not by my doing on extreme obsticals offroad It has cost less then $200 in 7 years,no toyota will ever do that.The Liberty has not been the best vehicle I've ever owned,that lies with Ford trucks there,a area which no toyota,nissain,or honda can ever compete.The only true test of parts longevity is the actual use of those parts over a actual time,those acceleration tests are BS and are just a guesstiment at best.There is a little thing called mass production where not all the parts will be good,you will have many bad parts,that's life and every company(not just auto makers) suffer from this.

 

[Searcher67]

Not to get in the middle of a ******* match, BUT:

I have owned Toyota's as well as good ole American machines.

I bought my 90 Toyota 4X4 extended cab for13,900.00

I put about 2500 worth of ARB gear and another 2000 in stereo equipment. Nice BFG at 31's

I put 269,000 miles on that thing and NEVER NEVER replaced anything but brakes/rotors/drums ..\\

I sold it just about 3 years later for 10,500...Now you do the math..Mind you it was garage kept and meticulously maintained and the day I sold it you would have thought it was new.. I even clean and detail the engine and frame components.

You think I will get that kind of return on my KJ? Which is still in my garage for a 3 day detail job! I could fry you some eggs on the block and you'd enjoy them!

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Yeah I get the "it's not a real Jeep" too.... We need a windshield strip stating "YES IT"S A REAL JEEP"

I should've thought of that.

OMG... I was going to say that!!! I ride in a Wrangler quite often, and Every other Wrangler waves back.. But no one in Liberty waves to each other, We need to start that!!

Other Jeeps always stop to let me in, and save parking spots for me. I do the same.

!0 years my a$$bs1.gif.

The Liberty has not been the best vehicle I've ever owned,that lies with Ford trucks there,a area which no toyota,nissain,or honda can ever compete.The only true test of parts longevity is the actual use of those parts over a actual time,those acceleration tests are BS and are just a guesstiment at best.There is a little thing called mass production where not all the parts will be good,you will have many bad parts,that's life and every company(not just auto makers) suffer from this.

The acceration tests are always on the slow end, as many testers (as I assume) use nearly new cars still being broken in. The KJ or the WJ have been my favorite vehicles.

 

[Rednroll]

!0 years my a$$bs1.gif.


90% of all the major breakage's I fix are on toyota's,honda's,and nissians.They are horrible,mainly the owners are horrible and don't maintain there junk and they get really pissed at that $2000 bill on a $10,000 vehicle.Toyota's quility has gone down the crapper big time in the last few years,and yes Ford,GM,and Chrysler's have gone up and even surpased the foriegn makers in the last 4-5 years.Most poeple buy into those conumer reports that are all lies and they are bought and paid for by the auto makers and that's why US vehicles never get a good review since they refuse to pay them off.Jeep is a big one,they rate the rav4 better offroad then a Wrangler Rubicon,like that will ever happen.If your a pavement pounder then sure a rav4 will work,I'm very rough on my vehicles and a toyota will not live very long with me driving,any toyota.The Liberty has been a great vehicle,as far as actual faults that was not by my doing on extreme obsticals offroad It has cost less then $200 in 7 years,no toyota will ever do that.The Liberty has not been the best vehicle I've ever owned,that lies with Ford trucks there,a area which no toyota,nissain,or honda can ever compete.The only true test of parts longevity is the actual use of those parts over a actual time,those acceleration tests are BS and are just a guesstiment at best.There is a little thing called mass production where not all the parts will be good,you will have many bad parts,that's life and every company(not just auto makers) suffer from this.

Proof in point. Mr. Know it all here, knows everything and will never listen to actual information from someone who knows 1st hand of how things are done. He knows NOTHING about the design and development process, yet he tries to debunk everything that I just said. Do you see me saying things, that I know nothing about?? No....I'll admit, I don't know a lot about the different variations of 4 wheel drive. I won't act like an expert when I know for a fact that I am not.....but just look at that reply above from someone who has never done anything in the development stages of a vehicle.

Yes....Toyota's quality has gone down recently and I can explain that to you also with another long story since I know what has caused that problem recently and I'll tell you WHY it will improve while Chrysler's won't and will most likely drop in quality.

Toyota develops it's vehicles built on the premise of a Japanese term called "Kaizen". The English translation of Kaizen means "Continuous Improvement". So what they do is with each new vehicle they design is that they use their previous design and then improve upon it in the next version and then add new technology as the market which you as a customer may be looking for. So as a supplier to Toyota and working with them directly, we reuse core parts of our previous design which we know has some long term real use reliability to them in the vehicle. We then add new functions and features to that design. Then we focus in on testing the things that have "changed" within the design. We already know we have reliability in the vehicle from the previous design in a majority of the core design sections, so we can now focus testing on the "changes" in the design and thus become more efficient, focused and in depth in our reliability testing processes. So once you're supplying parts for Toyota, you will usually remain a supplier for them with the next design and for many years to come where they will continue to work with you and focus in on improving your previous designs, so old problems will never remain the same new problem.

This Kaizen design approach has one drawback to it though. It sometimes means that you start to fall behind on the technology curve, because you're being forced to reuse parts of your old design and not being able to add the latest and greatest gizmo feature because the old design can not support it. So while Toyota's quality was continuously improving, they started to fall behind on the latest gadgets and gizmos that you as a customer wanted in your new vehicles. So a few years ago, Toyota had to become more aggressive in this area and started to make bigger changes in their designs. More changes increases the probability of things that can go wrong with the Quality of your parts, but it was something Toyota had to do, to remain competitive and to be able to offer you as a customer what you wanted. MORE CHANGES=HIGHER PROBABILITY FOR QUALITY PROBLEMS. I bolded that statement, because I will refer back to that later.

So anyways Toyota's quality took a dip as a result of that. Now that they've caught back up on that technology curve, they are back to focusing in on minimizing the changes to bring that quality back up to what people have grown accustomed to from previous Toyota vehicles. Kaizen is a way of life throughout Toyota. In their design processes, in their production processes, and in their testing processes...these things are ALL therefore "continuously improving" throughout Toyota.

Now since TJ mentioned FORD, I will talk about what Ford does in their design processes when developing a new vehicle and working with their suppliers. Chrysler isn't as bad as Ford in this area, but they also do this. When it comes to designing a new vehicle, Ford will invite all their potential suppliers into a bidding war for the business of supplying a part. They do this electronically on a web based bidding internal software utility. It's basically a lot like eBay, where they are auctioning business to suppliers. Their goal is to drive down the cost of the parts that are being supplied to them. Say you have 10 potential suppliers who want the business. Every supplier can see the current price that their competitive suppliers are offering FORD to get the business. So the other suppliers will then offer their part at a lower price to try to get that particular business from Ford. I'm not making this up....it's basically bidding for business through an Ebay method of auctioning. Usually the lower price supplier has a good chance of getting the business with Ford. Often suppliers who are desperate for the business or just want to get their foot in the door will put bids in that are below the costs that it actually costs them to make the part. The reason why they do this, is that often prices of components and pieces will drop over time or there becomes another cheaper part that they can use instead, and what they do is they make engineering "changes" after they get the business that will lower the cost of making their supplied part, where they can eventually see a profit.

2 major "quality" problems occur in this process.

The 1st being, is if the previous supplier of that part doesn't get the business due to not being able to lower their price enough, the new supplier's part is a totally NEW design. It might not have the same problems that the previous supplier's part had, but they really don't know what new problems may await them down the road, since they have no history with that new part's design to be able to rely upon. The previous supplied part supplier also loses the opportunity, to improve upon their previous problems....thus ensuring they don't happen again, and therefore there is no "continuous improvement"......no "Kaizen". You are basically throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting over with a new design and new potential problems.

The 2nd problem is now the new supplier since, they are now selling a part to Ford which is at a price below what they are able to build it, they WILL be making further design changes to lower the cost, so they can eventually get out of the red and into the green.......which means more "changes". Remember what I said earlier???
MORE CHANGES=HIGHER PROBABILITY FOR QUALITY PROBLEMS. But HEY!!! Ford was able to offer you a cheaper priced vehicle with all the latest and greatest gizmos in it. Just don't act surprised now when your new Ford vehicle starts to fall apart down the road, because now I've explained to you why that will probably happen.

I also have 1st hand experience with Chrysler/Jeep on the same type of thing. Chrysler wanted our part in their new vehicles with all the latest and greatest gizmos on it and they wanted it NOW!!! We delivered it to them. As a result of it being a totally new design they wanted and them wanting to accelerate the design timing so they could offer it to you as a customer....Yes, it had some initial quality problems when the new vehicles launched. It was a totally new design with all the latest and greatest gizmos on it that Chrysler wanted though. As the problems where found in the vehicles we fixed them, to where we eventually got it to where it was a good quality product. Since there where a lot of initial design problems and the cost of the part was higher than Chrysler wanted to pay......what do you think they decided to due in their future designed vehicles???? They decided to buy a new part from a new supplier who offered them something cheaper and they have no quality history with. So the part we where supplying got to where it needed to be in regards to QUALITY.....and now they're starting all over again with another supplier with a new design.....and new problems.

So Mr. TJ know-it-all. I know you have no knowledge of these things that I just went into with very much depth and explanation with your gear head garage repair experience. Do us all a favor and try not to act like you do. You personally sound like you could use a little "Kaizen" in your life.

 

[Ry' N Jen]

I've had two Dodge Colts, aka Mitsubishi Colt and Gallant.
The first one a 1990 1.5 liter I still have and it has over 389000.0 Kilometers (241713.39 Miles) {also goimg to shoe horn that 1.5 liter into my '79 Mini!} on the clock and the second one had over 425000 km on the clock.
I don't have a problem with Japanese vehicles!
I have a problem with "Badged Engineered" sticker clad passenger vehicles with 4X4 decals when at the end of the day it's an econo box and a rust bucket after 15 year old!
After all, alot of American cars end up as recycled Japanese vehicles!

 

[tjkj2002]

Proof in point. Mr. Know it all here, knows everything and will never listen to actual information from someone who knows 1st hand of how things are done. He knows NOTHING about the design and development process, yet he tries to debunk everything that I just said. Do you see me saying things, that I know nothing about?? No....I'll admit, I don't know a lot about the different variations of 4 wheel drive. I won't act like an expert when I know for a fact that I am not.....but just look at that reply above from someone who has never done anything in the development stages of a vehicle.

Yes....Toyota's quality has gone down recently and I can explain that to you also with another long story since I know what has caused that problem recently and I'll tell you WHY it will improve while Chrysler's won't and will most likely drop in quality.

Toyota develops it's vehicles built on the premise of a Japanese term called "Kaizen". The English translation of Kaizen means "Continuous Improvement". So what they do is with each new vehicle they design is that they use their previous design and then improve upon it in the next version and then add new technology as the market which you as a customer may be looking for. So as a supplier to Toyota and working with them directly, we reuse core parts of our previous design which we know has some long term real use reliability to them in the vehicle. We then add new functions and features to that design. Then we focus in on testing the things that have "changed" within the design. We already know we have reliability in the vehicle from the previous design in a majority of the core design sections, so we can now focus testing on the "changes" in the design and thus become more efficient, focused and in dept in our reliability testing processes. So once you're supplying parts for Toyota, you will usually remain a supplier for them with the next design and for many years to come where they will continue to work with you and focus in on improving your previous designs, so old problems will never remain the same new problem.

This Kaizen design approach has one drawback to it though. It sometimes means that you start to fall behind on the technology curve, because you're being forced to reuse parts of your old design and not being able to add the latest and greatest gizmo feature because the old design can not support it. So while Toyota's quality was continuously improving, they started to fall behind on the latest gadgets and gizmos that you as a customer wanted in your new vehicles. So a few years ago, Toyota had to become more aggressive in this area and started to make bigger changes in their designs. More changes increases the probability of things that can go wrong with the Quality of your parts, but it was something Toyota had to do, to remain competitive and to be able to offer you as a customer what you wanted. MORE CHANGES=HIGHER PROBABILITY FOR QUALITY PROBLEMS. I bolded that statement, because I will refer back to that later.

So anyways Toyota's quality took a dip as a result of that. Now that they've caught back up on that technology curve, they are back to focusing in on minimizing the changes to bring that quality back up to what people have grown accustomed to from previous Toyota vehicles. Kaizen is a way of life throughout Toyota. In their design processes, in their production processes, and in their testing processes...these things are ALL therefore "continuously improving" throughout Toyota.

Now since TJ mentioned FORD, I will talk about what Ford does in their design processes when developing a new vehicle and working with their suppliers. Chrysler isn't as bad as Ford in this area, but they also do this. When it comes to designing a new vehicle, Ford will invite all their potential suppliers into a bidding war for the business of supplying a part. They do this electronically on a web based bidding internal software utility. It's basically a lot like eBay, where they are auctioning business to suppliers. Their goal is to drive down the cost of the parts that are being supplied to them. Say you have 10 potential suppliers who want the business. Every supplier can see the current price that their competitive suppliers are offering FORD to get the business. So the other suppliers will then offer their part at a lower price to try to get that particular business from Ford. I'm not making this up....it's basically bidding for business through an Ebay method of auctioning. Usually the lower price supplier has a good chance of getting the business with Ford. Often suppliers who are desperate for the business or just want to get their foot in the door will put bids in that are below the costs that it actually costs them to make the part. The reason why they do this, is that often prices of components and pieces will drop over time or there becomes another cheaper part that they can use instead, and what they do is they make engineering "changes" after they get the business that will lower the cost of making their supplied part, where they can eventually see a profit.

2 major "quality" problems occur in this process.

The 1st being, is if the previous supplier of that part doesn't get the business due to not being able to lower their price enough, the new supplier's part is a totally NEW design. It might not have the same problems that the previous supplier's part had, but they really don't know what new problems may await them down the road, since they have no history with that new part's design to be able to rely upon. The previous supplied part supplier also loses the opportunity, to improve upon their previous problems....thus ensuring they don't happen again, and therefore there is no "continuous improvement"......no "Kaizen". You are basically throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting over with a new design and new potential problems.

The 2nd problem is now the new supplier since, they are now selling a part to Ford which is at a price below what they are able to build it, they WILL be making further design changes to lower the cost, so they can eventually get out of the red and into the green.......which means more "changes". Remember what I said earlier???
MORE CHANGES=HIGHER PROBABILITY FOR QUALITY PROBLEMS. But HEY!!! Ford was able to offer you a cheaper priced vehicle with all the latest and greatest gizmos in it. Just don't act surprised now when your new Ford vehicle starts to fall apart down the road, because now I've explained to you why that will probably happen.

I also have 1st hand experience with Chrysler/Jeep on the same type of thing. Chrysler wanted our part in their new vehicles with all the latest and greatest gizmos on it and they wanted it NOW!!! We delivered it to them. As a result of it being a totally new design they wanted and them wanting to accelerate the design timing so they could offer it to you as a customer....Yes, it had some initial quality problems when the new vehicles launched. It was a totally new design with all the latest and greatest gizmos on it that Chrysler wanted though. As the problems where found in the vehicles we fixed them, to where we eventually got it to where it was a good quality product. Since there where a lot of initial design problems and the cost of the part was higher than Chrysler wanted to pay......what do you think they decided to due in their future designed vehicles???? They decided to buy a new part from a new supplier who offered them something cheaper and they have no quality history with. So the part we where supplying got to where it needed to be.....and now they're starting all over again with another supplier with a new design.....and new problems.

So Mr. TJ know-it-all. I know you have no knowledge of these things that I just went into with very much depth and explanation with your gear head garage repair experience. Do us all a favor and try not to act like you do. You personally sound like you could use a little "Kaizen" in your life.

What you wrote makes zero sense.Oh and I have been part of a design/test of 2 brand new vehicles,one made the cut the other did not.The one that made production is was made by OshKosh,the one that did not was made by Mercedes.Myself and 9 others drove/abused and made idea changes and update on parts/design and tearing down/putting back together(for ease of us mechanics while under fire).OshKosh gladly did,Mercedes did not and lost the contract that is still being filled by a 40 year old design vehicle.So yes I know how the design/engineering process goes,been there done that and got the stupid t-shirt,oh did I mention I was 19 at the time.Granted it was for a tactical military vehicle,but I and 9 others where choosen due to our expertise in the automotive field.I also know all about the "cheapest bidder",dealt with it for 9 years.

 

[Ry' N Jen]

As for Cap-it, i've sent 3 emails enquiries for them OME coils .... never had a reply ... So i guess that makes me believe what you just said ... 2 different stores and nothing ...
Way to do business incompetents !!

Real good business practice eh?
Not to mention more exspensive than other shops for the exact same items!

 

[Rednroll]

What you wrote makes zero sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense to YOU. Your ignorance and denial of that ignorance, overwhelms yourself

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Ummm......

 

[adamkrz]

I didn't read all the posts but the only things I wish the KJ had Is a RECIRC. button and maybe a bigger glove compartment otherwise it's been the best vehicle I've owned hands down.

I also own a rav4 and really it's a car compared to the Jeep, If I try and tow my camper with the rav4 I'm sure the ****** would fall out.

 

[TigerClaws]

Jeep 5000lbs tow, Rav-4 3500lbs tow ....
What you do with it is only up to you ...
I tried all small sized SUV before i bought my KJ....
they all had something very cool and something not cool....
I'm rough on my vehicules no matter what its made for, i tend to push it to its limits;
therefore, i do 'lumberjacking', hacing to get there i need certain offroad capability and a robust frame from the vehicule. As soon as i laid my eyes on the belly of the KJ i thought; Thats the one made for me !! All other SUV are made humm girlier ? I liked most of them for comfort, mpg's, etc... but the KJ seemed to stand a bit apart as for the toughness of its body... Given its good looking, not bad comfortable, it was my choice... MPG is something i do only 5 km to get to my job... When i bought it i was like, im sick of americans crappy part falling cars...(always had only american cars) so reliability wasnt something i was expecting but to my surprise the KJ seems to be doing quite good in ratings. So i am very happy with my choice so far but i still respect other SUV's as they all had something cool and different. Thing is, KJ was truly the shoe to my foot! BTW: Yes Toyotas are more reliable, they last longer, but hell !! When they break down your wallet seems to have vanished !! GM's start falling apart at around 130 000km and cost 10 000$ less.... Toyotas start falling apart at 200 000km but are 10 000$ more at cost ... How often you change car ?